Hello and a very warm welcome. Uh This is another video which is designed to support you in your efforts to become a police station representative, an accredited police station representative. And uh one of the tasks I think in criminal law, which is probably one of the most uh difficult, in fact, um I'm Matthew Hickling, hopefully we've met in previous videos. Um So let's just have a look at what we've got for you um in this particular session. So here we are at the police station, so we're suitably uh suited and booted, as they say, with a collar and tie and a jacket and uh ballet tights. Oh, that's a thought, isn't it? We never know online, do we really with these videos and things? But uh we're at the police station suitably suitably dressed. And here we are um at part nine, which is the lawyer um in an interview under caution. Um this at the police station uh section if you like uh is a part of the overall series of videos and it consists of nine videos and here we are at the, the, the ninth uh of those videos. Uh the lawyer in an interview under caution. I'm hoping, uh that you have in fact watched uh all the other eight videos because we kind of refer to them um as we go along and uh I'm, I, I'm give myself liberty to refer back to videos that I've actually made uh before. So hopefully you're watching them and you've watched the series before we have as usual our learning objectives. Um So these will be repeated at the end. I'm not gonna read them out to you, but uh please do pause the video and have a look at those. And also at the end of the video, uh please do check that we've covered exactly what we intended to cover learning outcomes. Well, these, these are your skills really that sort of flow from your learning. Um And this is what the video is designed to equip you to do um or be able to do. Um So that when you get to the police station, you can put your learning uh into practice. So let's have a look at what we've got in this video then. Well, we've got five items of uh content uh in this video, the interview process. Um And then one that I've called, get them talking um a College of Policing Guidance, uh seating and eye contact and opening statements and interventions. So we'll be covering all of those in the course of the next. Well, let's see how we go for how long it takes. So let's have a look. Firstly, at the interview process. Well, the police have a duty to investigate crime, um which may include interviewing a suspect under caution. Um And immediately we, we think about our own sort of um obligations as lawyers principle. One is to uphold the constitutional principles of the rule of law and the proper administration of justice. And all of that means that we do not interfere with a lawfully conducted process. Um And we are, of course, me observers and the police, um they don't sort of have an option here. They have a duty. Um And I think I told you before, I was in the police for 14 years as you don't just sit back and think, oh, shall I do that? Shall I not do that? No, it's your job. Um And so you get on with it. Um and people um do not stand in your way. Principle seven, of course, um is another of conduct. There are seven principles of conduct um as we speak in 2023. And these are the sr a the solicitors regulation, authority principles of conduct, which is to act in the best interests of each client. Um And I'm just asking the question here, what if your client is deemed to be fit to be interviewed but nonetheless, is highly vulnerable, uh distressed, suggestible, emotional, these are very difficult things to assess. Um And it may be that these uh, characteristics are not sort of borne by uh your client every day, but are, are brought on by the experience of being arrested and uh being in custody, I think I've mentioned in a previous video, uh the effect of being in custody had um on a solicitor and unless you've been through the experience, um you will not, I have no article. Um, but um, you, you, you, you would not uh necessarily sort of understand um everything that, that your client is going through. So if your client is uh these things, would it be in their best interest to go into an interview room? Um sit in a confrontational position opposite interviewing police officers and submit uh to being interrogated. Um And that's the question I'm asking. Um And if you're thinking that, that, that that's what the client should do. Um Then I'm assuming that according to principle seven, you consider it to be in your client's best interest to uh to do so. Um But I put a note here, there is no legal requirement to do so. And so, and this particular portfolio case failed. Um I do remember reading it. I just said I advised my client that all he would be required to do in the interview under caution was to confirm his name and date of birth. And after that, he could just say no comments to each question. And so I think in my feedback to that one I just said, would you please, if you're going to cite a requirement, a legal requirement and you're going to advise your clients that there is a legal requirement to do this. Um Then you need to say where that legal requirement is. Now, I'm not sure what happened to that particular candidate. Um Hopefully they went back maybe and, and had a look or maybe, maybe it's asked somebody. Um but the reason that portfolio case fails is, is it is not just because there's a misquote or a misstatement. It's because the person's not actually gone back to the books and, and, and gone, gone and researched uh the law and the code of practice. Um, because that, that, for me, it is the failing in it. Um And that's why, you know that I'm these videos, I'm, I can't cover everything. Um, but I'm encouraging you always to go back and have a look and read this and research that and this video isn't going to be no different. Um So, um, as we go along, um I should be signposting you to look at other things. There's another case study. I, I've told you before in these videos and I'm grateful to, um, uh, the, uh, solicitors who have spoken to me over the years. I've been running training courses for um, accredited police station reps, probationary reps, uh accreditation, candidates, duty solicitors and crime practitioners and, and, and many, many others for um, 30 years or more now. Um And this was a case study where, where the solicitor told me about. He said the client um declined, was declining to cooperate with the interview process and said, no iiiii I don't intend to um come into an interview room and sit and be questioned and I'll go back to my cell. Uh and the client was being escorted along the corridor back to his cell. Um And the interview room door was open and the officer just grabbed hold of the, of the client and shoved the client quite violently through the open door and, and pushed the client into a chair and basically said, you know, you will sit there and you will be interviewed. Um, well, of course, this was an unlawful common assault apart from anything else. Um, and so, um, the, this list took this up with the custody sergeant. It was all resolved. But, um, I, I just don't agree with the rush of blood to the head or maybe just a little bit of, um, uh, over there. But, um, but there's something going on and one doesn't know what's sort of gone on before. Um, but, uh, yes, this was, this was, this was not a lawful conduct by the officer. So, well, let's consider whether or not the client should cooperate. Well, cooperating with the process, uh means expedition that the thing is expedited. Um You know, you get through the process, it is done um however long it takes um and balancing the client's vulnerabilities with their best interest. Usually favors, I've put it usually favors cooperation with the process. Um But cooperation doesn't mean um answering questions, you can cooperate with the process. Uh And, and then still go, no comment. I had these conversations with officers over the years. Um where they said, well, your client's not exactly being cooperative. I said, well, client's been entirely cooperative. My client came into the interview room and sat there while you ask questions, you didn't, didn't answer any of them that that is being entirely cooperative. Um So is there a provision um for uh a AAA non cooperative uh suspect to detain you? Well, the answer is yes, as you would expect code C 12.5 police may question a person, but of course they may, it's their duty to do to do so. Um I may question the person in a cell using portable recording equipment um or uh contemporaneous notes. I have as a police officer used contemporaneous notes in a cell. I um have known as a solicitor, um portable recording equipment uh being used um notably with a client um whose best interest were not served by her um cooperating with the process. And so all she did was lie on her bone, cover herself up with a blanket, turn over and face the wall. Um And yes and, and not obstruct the process uh of the questions being asked, um which is uh which is perfectly proper. There's also a provision in code ew we'll look at these codes in, in a, in a tiny bit more detail um shortly. Um But I just wanted to flag up in code E A 3.4 paragraph. Um if a person refuses to go into uh or remain in a suitable interview room, um And the custody officer considers that the interview should not be delayed. Uh The interview may be conducted in a cell that's under the provisions of code C. Um And again using portable recording equipment. So there's a little bit of repetition there from code C 12.5 transposing itself into code E uh 3.4. So the codes of practice then. Well, well, yeah, we've been dotting around them already from code C to code E and they're not really all together as such for this purpose because uh the codes of practice are constructed um for, for, for their own purpose and therefore not for our purpose really. And so we have code uh a CAA 10 11 12 and also six that are relevant and code E and code F, we did a video on the codes of practice and, and, and all these things. So um all of these bits and pieces are, are relevant and I'm going to encourage you, please um to look at them and research them. Um and it would be, it would be a good idea while you're watching this video. Um when we refer to a code of practice as we just have maybe just to pause the video and, and, and, and get on to pa codes of practice online um and have a look at them. Um or at least maybe if you're going to watch this video again. Um But, but please don't just watch the video and think, oh, that's it. Then I'm done. Please go back and have a look at these particular provision. Um, because all I can do in these videos is to sort of summarize them, um and sort of annotate them into um, a sort of powerpoint presentation for you. So please do as we talk as we talk about these have a look at them and if you've not looked at the ones we've already referred to, well, just pause the video and go and have a look and, and just, just be satis be satisfied that, you know, where they are and that you have actually read them. So code 10, um it refers to when a caution must be given. Um So a person suspected of an offense must not be questioned about it unless they are cautioned or an exception applies. So it's perfectly all right to, to ask a person some questions, um you know, to sort of clarify things, you might be at a, um, you know, conducting a search as a police officer, for example, and you might say, well, is this your bedroom, you know, is this your bag? Um all of these things are absolutely fine and they are not putting questions to a person about their suspected involvement in a criminal offense. So there is a degree of questioning that falls short of that, um that actually is, is perfectly legitimate. Um And as you would expect, and there are also the exceptions which are the uh the urgent interviews which we've covered again uh in a previous video video, minor deviations from the actual wording of the caution which is given in the codes of brightest will not invalidate the caution. So you don't need to get it word perfect as long as the thrust of it, the gist of it and the meaning of it um is actually um essentially delivered. Um and also, um it says in code C 10 that the interviewee must be reminded after any break uh in an interview under caution that, that they are still under a caution. It's to the discretion of the interviewer as to whether or not the interview interviewee gets the caution repeated um as to whether you know, they, they understand it. Um And of course, there's a mention in code C 10 about special warnings which again we covered uh in a separate video code C paragraph 11 then refers to interviews in general and this is defines an interview um as I just have, it's, it's putting questions to a person about their involvement or suspected involvement in a criminal offense. It allows for urgent interviews as I've mentioned and reminding the suspect not only of the fact that they're under caution, but their right to free legal advice um if they haven't got it. Um It also talks about putting any significant statement or silence. So this is where um you, you remember II I said in a previous video, we got some inculpatory statement, uh sort of a statement made which is adverse to the person who made it. Um Or of course, it could be um any uh silence or a non response that the police um would want to put to the person that that would be. Um, and, and those are to be put at the start of any uh interview and there must be no questioning by oppression. Um And in the same paragraph, um not only that but um, you must not, um put a question to a suspect in an interview under caution. Um And at the same time, uh indicate what the consequences will be of uh either answering it or not answering it. Um And this can come up in the exam sometimes. So, um, we'll have a look at it a bit later. But um, the, uh the point is there are there are these prohibitions if you like um on um questioning and they're in code C 11. So please do uh read it, it also uh provides for interviews to be recorded um either uh on audio or audio visual um or if it's not practicable to record it on an audio device, then written notes um as we've indicated um already in this particular video and if written notes are made, um then the suspect and the solicitor must be allowed to read uh the record. Um And given the opportunity to sign, I have as a police officer conducted um interviews under caution with uh using contemporaneous notes. Um and believe me, they, they, they take some writing um and, and you got to make, make sure that you, you actually record everything, you have to stop fairly regularly just to make sure that everything is accurately recorded. There are also provisions in code C 11 for interviewing uh juveniles and vulnerable persons and also um you the use of live links, which I'm not going to go through in detail. But please again, uh do familiarize yourself with the provisions in base code C paragraph 11. So code C paragraph 12, um talks about interviews in police stations. Um It, it talks about people uh when the interview should happen, that persons in custody must usually be given eight hours continuous rest um in every um period of 24 hours, usually at night. Um I have had cases where you have night workers um who are, you know, arrested and one was arrested at their place of work. Um And Well, yes, if that is their routine to be up at night and then to sleep during the day when you, you're not going to say, oh, no, you please wait until midday, before, before you interview because that's obviously when they, when they would normally be asleep. So, um, there are these, um, provision sort of provisions, I suppose to say, look to the police, let be, uh, be usually, then the rest would be at night time. So, um, it also requires the police to assess a person's, a person's fitness to be interviewed. Um, and we talked about that in a previous video covered to a degree by code C paragraph nine. Again, if you've not read it, you're not familiar with them. Please please just pause the video, get online, go have a look at them, go look at what I'm talking about. Um, so please don't sit there and think, oh, you know, I'm not really sure but, but never mind, I'm sure we're covering the video. We aren't, um, because I'm just referring to these things and, and I want to encourage you to, uh, to look them up. Um, it can be, of course that a person can be certified, you know, by, um, a forced medical examiner as, as, as being fit to be interviewed. Um, but it, it, it might be, um, that they've missed something, um, or indeed that they're not really sure what it is that, uh, that, that they're sort of um, certifying the person to be fit for. Um, I had a very good friend once who was um the force medical examiner. Uh, and um I, I talked to him about certifying people fit to be interviewed and fit to be detained. I said, have you ever been detained? He said, well, no, I said, have you ever been interviewed in a court? And he said, well, no, I said, so actually, you're certifying people to be fit for a process that you're not familiar with. And he said, I never really thought about it like that. Um So these things are not absolute, you know, they're not definitive and, and it could be, it come up in a, in an assessment that your client has been certified fit to be interviewed and fit to be detained. But um they then reveal that there is an issue there, etcetera C 12 also um requires an interview room to be adequately lit, adequately ventilated interview, not being made to stand. Um I I'm just summarizing these provisions here and trying to encourage you to make sure that you read the full uh code because that's the only way you, you're sort of fill your knowledge out if you like code C always also sorry, talks about breaks being recognized, meal times. Um So when do the interviewee uh have a meal? When are they due a break? When are they due some refreshment? Um So a short refreshment break, it says after two hours of being interviewed. Goodness me. Um Yes, I'm not sure that whoever drafted that particularly is, is familiar um with the rigors of being interrogated under caution because, um I would think that a continuous stint of two hours. Um Well, I'll put it this way. I would like to put the person who wrote this into an interrogation and get them interrogated continuously for a period of two hours. Um And they get them to tell me that that was an appropriate time before uh they should be entitled to a refreshment break. So again, I would treat these as a guide, they very much um dependent on how your client is coping. I'm not saying it's impossible. It could be that your client copes very well with an interview for a continuous period of two hours. Um I'm not sure I've come across very many in my experience here. Um But unless the interview of course is urgent, um the interview again may be uh by live link. Um And everything again must be documented and recorded. I am annotating the content of code C paragraph 12 here. So again, um I do exhort you and then treat you please to read it. Code E refers to audio recordings and while code C talks about um the interviews and when they should happen and how they should be conducted. Code E refers specifically to the equipment and how it should be used and really the sort of functionality if you like of an audio recorded interview. Um It says interview should be conducted by a designated person who is obviously trained and, and to use the equipment and it may be recorded using the secure digital network. Um which, which, which I think is pretty much ought to be um the norm around England and Wales. Uh now, um and that is uploaded to a secure file server. So you have a um so unit if you like in the interview room and that takes the recording of the interview under caution and stores it there um on that machine. Uh And then at the end of, of, of the uh recording, um you're obviously uh given a code for the recording and that is when um it, it, it is the recording itself um is then uploaded onto the secure digital network, in other words, off the machine and onto uh the, the main secure file server. Um It is also possible to use recording uh media when I started. Um we had uh cassette tapes. Um I don't suppose maybe you've never heard of a cassette tape or we have cassette tapes. Um And then uh they moved to uh compact desks as C DS, um these rather awkward machines with, with, with three CD slots. Um And it, it's also possible to use as um a secure digital uh card or, or any other sort of portable. Um uh storage media. Um And um there are obviously provisions relating to, to those which are separate from you using a secure digital network. And as ever, the alternative um is contemporaneous notes but not covered in code. Uh because of course, it's referring to the actual audio recordings. So what Cody says that at the conclusion of an interview, suspect shall be offered the opportunity to clarify, anything said and asked if there is anything that they would like to add. So that's, that should be the norm for any interviewer. Um And the suspect shall be handed a notice, explaining how the uh audio recording will be used and how it will be stored. Um and um any arrangements for access to it. Um And also that if the person is charged, I've put, just put et cetera here because it's not really room on the slide here, but charged or told that they may be prosecuted for it. So in other words, reporting them, um or if otherwise it is agreed or ordered by a court, um a copy of the audio recording will be supplied to them. So there are contingent uh contingencies that where a person is entitled to a copy. Um But of course, these things may not happen. Um And so if your client or, or you are, are concerned um about whether or not there is going to be any access to uh the audio recording, it may be subject for a negotiation beforehand. So I think on one occasion, um what I, what I've said to the office, look, I, I, I'm not sure any charge will come up of this, but I'd like to agree now that any client can have access to a copy of the recording. Um To be honest, I can't really remember what the outcome was. I'm not sure the client needed it ultimately, but it's worth being, at least to being aware that code E has these sort of contingencies um which would trigger the availability um of the audio recording code. E also goes on to say that the custody officer may authorize the interviewer not to record the interview when it's not reasonably practicable. So there are provisions in code E for equipment failure and what to do. Um If the equipment fails at either a beginning or part way through, um or if there's the uh the uh in the event of the unavailability of a suitable interview room or equipment. Um And the interview room, the interview, I'm sorry, should not be delayed. Um Or it is clear, interestingly from the outset uh that there will not be a prosecution in which case, uh you uh make a note um and record details of the interview in a writing. So all of that um is in code E and please um yeah, don't go and sit as a lawyer in an interview under caution. Um That's being audio recorded unless you've actually read and familiarize yourself with, with Cody, you know, why would you, so now we just gonna move on to Code F, which is the audio visual recording of an interview under caution. Um It mirrors code E so a lot of the provisions are very, very similar um and sort of just artist and just repeat if you like a lot of code E um and secure digital network and it goes to taking a break again, failure of the recording equipment, replacing recording me, all the things you would expect here and concluding the interview and also securing a master copy. So all of that is in code F again, please read it um because it may be um that you arrive at the police station and uh find that uh the police propose to um audio visually uh record the interview under caution. We now come to objections and Code F recognizes and Cody as well that a suspect may um object also an appropriate adult uh may object to the interview being visually recorded. So code F specifically relating to the audio visual recording of interviews and uh Code F says that if that's the case, well, you should audio visually record the person's objections. Um I'm not really sure who wrote this because I think if somebody is objecting to being audio visually recorded, the last thing, probably you want to say to them is well, would you could we please just audio visually record your objection to being audio visually recorded. Um, quite frankly, it did, for me, it doesn't make an awful lot of sense. But, um, but, but if you object to it, make it clear at the beginning before it, before it starts really, if a separate audio recording is being made, uh, the interviewer shall ask the person to record their reasons for refusing to agree. Well, um, that, that, that's being audio recorded, but of course, um a, a suspect or an appropriate adult may object to the interview being audio recorded. This is suspect, an appropriate adult. So if, if you're making representations on this, then clearly they would be on behalf of your client of the suspect who is making these objections. And Cody then requires the objection to being audio recorded to be audio recorded. So we're in the same territory again. Um And well, look, I didn't write this stuff. So um please do have a read of it um and work out what you might do um in the event. Um It says here that if the interviewer reasonably considers that they may proceed uh to question the suspect, either audio recording in code E or audio visual and code F, um the interviewer may do so, but there's a couple of notes for guidance um which says that proceeding regardless um may be the subject of, of comment in court. And I just think, well, why would, why would you be there anyway, you know, in what, um, on what planet would you, would you still be there if indeed you have objected? So, um, or the client has objected? Well, I suppose maybe if there's a lawyer isn't there and the appropriate adult isn't, maybe doing their job and the suspect may not really understand or know what's going on then. Well, potentially, maybe they might be taken advantage of. But, um, it seems to me that if we, the lawyer, uh uh uh if, if, if we are there, uh then, um II, I don't think we would get to that position. Now, what about being filmed yourself? Um Code talks about uh being audio visually recorded. This is a suspect, being audio, visually recorded. But of course, if the cameras in the room and it's trained on the suspect and I'm sure you've seen these things on, on the television, um uh recordings or wherever you may, you may find these things, but it's just is the suspect and the lawyer um on the video. Uh and there have been instances of lawyers being audio visually recorded. I am familiar with them. I have been spoken to by the individual lawyers concerned and I haven't got time in this video to give you lots of war stories about them. But let me just say that um, the recordings have been published in the, in the media, um, one accredited rep um, said I, I'm sorry, is it, are you audio recording that are you visually recording this? Um And the officer said, well, we're not with the lights on, on the camera. And they said, we, we, we actually assure you that, you know, we are not recording this. Um And it was audio visually recorded and he went back to uh the police force concern. Um and said, you told me that you weren't uh audio visually recording it. They said, well, no, we weren't. Um Basically where the BBC in, in the recording room. So it wasn't us. The question you should have asked was not, are you audio? Are you audio visually recording this? Um But is this being audio visually recorded? Well, then we would have had to have said, well, yes, it is. Um But that's not the question that you asked. Well, you know. All right. Um Let's just say that's disingenuous. Um It also, uh I think that was in Wiltshire. It also happened in Devon and Corn um, to a police station rep, um, who found herself one morning. Um, not having watched the program the previous night. Um leaving her daughter on the playground at school and then her eight year old daughter being accosted by parents, um, who had recognized the mum basically saying is that your mum on the television last night. Um And this is outrageous. Um It shouldn't happen. Um I have actually spoken to uh a very senior uh chief police officers about it Um And I've been assured that it really, it just shouldn't happen, but the fact is you have no control over what is subsequently done with uh your own uh recording. So if somebody has audio visually recorded, you, unless you are in charge of the media, um on which that recording is, um, then you don't have any control over it. Um And if you have a high profile client, if it's looking as though that this could be a case that might be in the, in the media. Well, all I say is, you know, what's the risk? Um and, and assess the risk, uh mitigate the risk as best you can and then decide whether or not um the risk of you being filmed uh is actually within your risk tolerance is it doesn't appear, of course, anywhere in the codes of practice because it's not relevant to, to the police and suspects, but highly relevant to us, I would suggest. Um And if you're anxious about being filmed, if your mind's not on the job, but, but you, you, you're worried about what might be done with it, then I, I need to, I, I have to ask, you know, do you think that you are in a position to discharge your obligations to the client um and deal with the police um if you have these anxieties ongoing. So I'm not here to tell you whether or not you should uh consent to uh being uh, uh, uh, filmed, uh, because that's what it is. Um, do you make your own, uh, make your own decisions on that? Uh, and, and this down again to your professional judgment, which I've mentioned previously, uh, on these programs, uh, I have my own views. Um, but, um, I'm gonna leave you to, uh, to, to form your own. So now let's just have a look at post charge, uh, interviews after a person has been charged or told that they uh that they will be um reported or they may be prosecuted. Um For it. Other words, the um that the file is going to the Crown prosecution service, et cetera. Um Can a person be uh sort of interviewed uh a bit more uh with the answers? No except um, so this uh code C 16.4 it's not really an interview. Um That's why I've put the word interviews in inverted commerce in this particular slide, um says after a detainee has been charged or informed, maybe be prosecuted. Um The officer, an officer may hand the detainee a true copy or a true copy of the content of a written statement made by somebody else. Usually that'd be a co accused, co co suspect. Um So I say, well, you know, um this is what they say, um and nothing should be done to invite any reply or comment except to caution the detainee uh and remind the detainee if indeed they need need reminding uh about their right to legal advice. So this is the police who want to bring to this person's attention, the fact that somebody else um has presumably docked them up or whatever it may be. So, um there is this provision in code C again, please look at code C 16 and read it the next um paragraph in code C 16. It says the detainee may not be interviewed after charge unless it is necessary. So this is actually now an interview and asking questions rather than just putting a statement in front of them. Um this to prevent or minimize harm or loss to a person or the public clear up an ambiguity in a previous answer or statement or if it is in the interests of justice for them to have put to them uh and for them to be able to comment on um information uh which has come to light since. So, um um that would, that, that would encompass 16.4 when of course, um One assumes that the statement would have been uh made um after the person has been interviewed before. But this is a more general provision if you like and again, the person must be cautioned and or reminded of their right to legal advice. So a summary, then we've looked at the law, we've looked at the codes of Practice. Code C, it is that covers interviews in general. Um Code C 12.5 recognizes that a suspect may decline to cooperate with the process. Um In which case, probably going to result in a cell uh interview. Um And as lawyers, we must assess the client's best interests by reference to any perceived weaknesses, any, any distress, anxiety, emotional responses suggestibility on uh um and all of those things basically, and the balance as I've put here usually favors cooperation with the process. Um But if it does um the risk, it is a risk. Um and it's up to you to assess that risk. And if it is a significant risk that the higher the risk, the more uh you will need to consider and put measures into place uh to address that risk. This is just a standard risk management process if you like. Um And I've also, we've mentioned code E and code F as well as code C um which relate respectively to the audio recording and the audio visual recording and these refer to the actual procedures. So please please, please uh read those um and make sure and also make sure you look at the current versions, I'm here in um you know, 2023. Um and it may be uh that they are uh tweaked or updated or whatever. So please look at the current versions uh online of uh pa code CE and F. So let's now have a look uh and move on to um to our next uh element of this video which is get them talking. Um First of all, I'm just making the observation that the competence of interviewers is highly variable. Some have a pre drafted list of uh questions. Sometimes they're pre agreed. Um Yes, yes. That's all right. You can go in and ask those questions. Um And then they just read them. Um, goodness me, I've been in interviews where I just thought, oh, goodness sake. Put that away. Let me do it. Um, but of course not my job. Um, it was my job for, for, for 14 years. But, but, but no, it's not anymore. Um, and, um, you sort of despair sometimes at the, uh, uh, the lack of, uh, training, uh, that they've been given, um, all the more so I think for me because my last, uh, 10 months in the police, uh, were spent, uh, heading up and running something, uh, that we call the interview development course. So we put the entire C ID of our police force 100 and 60 detectives through, uh, a residential course and most of them came for two weeks. Um, and I had an inspector and a sergeant helping me. Um, and we ran the course on, on basically training them to, uh, conduct competent interviewers. So, yes, my reaction when I, when I see some poor interviewing is just to, um, just to, just to despair and it's all I can do to despair internally, I suppose. Um, because it disables the interviewer from being able to be responsive, consider the answers being reflective. Um, and, you know, it's just a series of questions probably, you know, better for a client if indeed they've got something to hide better for a client, maybe who's not answering questions. Because the sort of the, the stultified process, it is not really sort of entering into the human dynamic of the situation, but don't expect it because other interviewers are much, much better. So, uh, we do not expect, um, this sort of interviewers to be, uh, sort of less than competent, expect something better. Um, and if you don't get something better, well, you know, so be it. So getting them talking and the first objective of an interview is to get the interviewee talking. Well, of course, it is an interview is somebody asks the questions and someone answers. We, we know that, that, that's what an interview is. Um, and so someone not answering questions. Well, yes, it, it's going through a process but you could, you could hardly really call it an interview. Somebody's not in fact answering the questions. Can you imagine it? Um, looking at TV? Oh, we've got this star here to interview and you ask questions and they just don't answer. Um, and you'd be sitting there thinking, well, that's not really an interview, is it? Um, and so, and in an interview, uh, the whole purpose of it is to, is, is to have some interaction between interviewer and interviewee. Um And psychologists tell us, II I, we worked with a forensic psychologist, um, Eric Shepherd who also, um sort of helped to construct um some uh resources for um uh the police and also for uh lawyers at the police station. Um, they're very competent forensic psychologists and, and, and, and he and others tell us that um, once we start engaging, uh it, it's very difficult to stop. Um, so, uh, human interaction, um, is based on turn taking. Um, and the psychologists tell us that we learn that, um, in the cot, in the pram, you know, as newborns, um, you know, a great aunt Emily, other relatives are available, uh, will come and actually say, well, you know, who's a lovely, um, baby. Um, and, and we sort of look and, and, and then eventually, you know, we'll gurgle maybe, um, in response and then, of course, Great Aunt Emily, ah, and we sense that response and we learn from that, that what we're required to do, um, as human beings is to respond and this is called turn taking. Um, and, um, so if, if an interviewer is expecting a, a no comment interview, so what we might call a non interview, um, then the interviewer might just wait until the recording begins, uh, and then see whether or not, uh, we can get this person who has decided not to answer questions and see whether or not we can get them uh sort of, you know, uh into this embedded process uh of uh turn taking. So here's some examples then um you know, in the, the, the interview is now being recorded and here I am the interviewer for the benefit of the recording. Would you please confirm your name and date of birth? Well, here, yes, my name is as well. It's turn taking and, and, and this um process of human interaction psychologists tell us would lead to engaging with the interviewer. Um And if they're doing this and you're wondering who, who trained them to do this or how to keep a low profile on this one. There's another question there. Are you happy that you've had enough time to consult with your lawyer this? Well, um and, and you've got the interviewee thinking, well, I'm gonna go no comment but, but I don't think, I think this one's ok. Um And this can be quite confusing for somebody because what they may not have been prepared for by the lawyer. I I is, is this process. Um So, you know, if you ask any questions about it and you know, no comment and then now the, the, the interviewee is thinking well, yeah, but, but, but these, these ones are ok, are they, um and they, they may even be, be sort of looking at you. Um And believe me, I have been in interviews riding shotgun, I'll mention more about that. In a moment. Um, and, and yeah, the, the, the lawyers there are busily taking notes and looking down and writing down, the clients are looking for some support and some guidance, but it's not there. Um, so here's another one, you know, we're here to ask you some questions about what happened last night. Do you understand that? Well, again, all seems a bit of an innocuous question, doesn't it? Really? So, um, is this one? I go no comment to. I can't, I can't, we're sort of part way there, aren't we? Um And, and you mustn't leave your client to make these decisions. This is not your, your client shouldn't be there thinking, well, I'm sorry. Is this a, is this, this is what? No, no comment one. This should all have been sorted out before you went in and here's the caution, you know, you don't have to say anything and so forth and so forth. Do you understand what that means? So, this is a, oh, do you understand what the, what the caution means? Well, we did a video on the caution so I'm not even sure many people understand what the caution means. Do you remember? It was the, it was the one slide that I built. Um And um, if you've not watched that video, then please do watch it. So, um, again, this, these are just examples of how to get a person, turn taking, get them talking. Um, because turn taking then leads into engagement. Once you actually start, it's very, very difficult to stop. And so these innocuous questions, uh established turn taking, they're probably unlawful. If you remember, uh early on in this video, I told you, I told you code C 11 defined an interview, the questioning of a person regarding their involvement or suspected involvement in a criminal offense. So, is this, that, is that what's going on here? You know, are you happy? You've had enough time with your lawyer? Now, actually, if you're not happy about that, ask me before the recording begins or ask my lawyer that whether my lawyer is happy that my, that my lawyer is happy that I've had enough time with my lawyer. So, um, yeah, the, the, when you think about it, what should be going on, um, but the interviewer can nonetheless use these innocuous questions uh to start to turn taking and this, um, psychologists tell us that once we start it, it's the devil's own task to actually stop. Um So it, it actually you've got to stop yourself and decide that point. Um And unless you've got, you know, a lawyer there saying yes, that's ok. That's ok. That's ok. But of course, then the lawyers are telling you what questions to answer and what, what questions to not and getting far too deeply involved in the process of being interviewed. And so we need to prepare and plan for this and, and make sure that the client understands what it is that the client is going to be doing in the interview of caution and, and trust me, um you can go through this uh time and time again with a client, um and expect them to take it all on board and then go into an interview under caution and uh and, and sort of, you know, then uh deploy and discharge that which you've discussed. Uh And it's not gonna happen, I'm afraid because we've got a totally different dynamic going on um in the interview under caution. So this all needs to be uh risk assessed, monitored, managed. Uh all the time, there can actually be another subliminal purpose here. Um And you can tell that I did do the training uh for the C ID on these. Um So I say to the lawyer, um and would you introduce yourself please, to, to the team? And so I, I know introduce myself. Um And I do exactly what I'm told. Um And what the psychologists tell us is that this quickly becomes an established norm of the whole process within the room while the recording is going on. Uh That everybody does what they're told by the interviewers and the interviewee, the lawyer is being, being doing what they're told. Um And any departure from that sort of very quickly established norm is obvious and very difficult to um to impose, there are mixed messages about um what should happen at the beginning of an interview under caution. I just want to highlight those. Um by now, I'm sure you would have read code C paragraph 12. And so you'll have come across this already. C 12.7 which says that before the interview commences, um, each interviewer shall um subject to paragraph 2.6 A which, which talks about to the bottom of the slide here, officers withholding their identity if they, if they, if they are fearful um, of um, of the, of the suspect, um they identify themselves and any other persons present. So, code C does not refer to an interviewee or a lawyer, um, introduce themselves at all. Um It says that it is the task of the interviewer um to say who is actually in the, the room. Well, the reason I say this mixed messages here is because we then look at code E which again, I'm hoping you've read by now. Um 4.4. It's not a, it's not a big code E and F quite small. Um, 4.4. It says the interviewer explain the recording the process to uh the uh the interview, the interviewee, um, say, look when that light is on. That means that, that, that, that, that it's actually in the process of recording, it's being audibly recorded or whatever it may be. Um And they give their name, their rank subject to obviously the other provisions in code uh C and that of any other interviewer present and then it says the interviewer shall ask the suspect and any other party present um, list to identify themselves so different here. Um So, um, which, um, code, um, takes precedence. Well, we all obviously regard code C as taking precedence over code E um, in the event of a conflict between the two. but I'm not saying that either is right or either is wrong because, um that, that would be just to try to oversimplify it. Um So what the code C says, interviewers shall identify themselves or any of the person present code E says shall ask it's a request um which can be declined. Um And so there is no compulsion. So I think probably um because a compulsion would need a sanction, it's not a compulsion. Um And um I, I think that we, we take the view that it is for the interviewer to ensure that the recording um has a record of who is in the room and that's got to be the right approach. So if uh you are going to go into an interview under caution and the client is not going to be speaking at all in the interview under caution but remaining mute, which we'll deal with in a moment. Um It might be prudent just to let the officer know um as I have done in the past. Um and just the officer just to let you know, um It's not going to say anything in the under. And I know that, you know, we normally ask everybody to introduce themselves. But would you please do code C? So you can either introduce everybody or I'm I'm happy to, to, to say who I am and also to say um who the client is. Um but, but he won't be, he won't be speaking um because it's nice kind of to remind the officers who are maybe used to something different that there is a provision in code C that actually does uh does cover it because um sometimes um they, they might not know. So yeah, here we go. I've just put that you do not have to say anything. Um And that is uh that, that is a given the number of times I've actually had to um sort of repeat that um you know, you do not have to say anything. Um because that's the beginning of the caution as you know, the suspect uh may be able to cope with saying no comment, but this is turn taking. So ask a question, question, question, question, no comment, question, question, question, no comment. This is Great Aunt Emily with you in the car and, and, and it's you having this embedded uh turn taking. And so what is happening is that the interviewer simply by saying no comment, which, which might look as though it's not an engagement. It actually is. Um And so the risk is that this turn taking will lead to uh engagement, further engagement. In other words, more than just saying no comment. Um So a question can come along as I put here hits a weak spot, provokes an emotional response. I've had this happen. Um And you know, you've got to watch out for it um and support the client through it. Um And I've put it remaining mute, not saying anything. Um If you're well supported by your lawyer and that is, that is considered to be in your best interest, in other words, cooperate with the process but don't speak. Um It's more difficult initially because it, it feels rude. Imagine, you know, you're introduced to somebody, um I say sexually um and you just stand there and they talk to you. Um It's quite, it, it, it's difficult for the first couple of questions, but actually, after a while, a very short time, in fact, it can ultimately be easier to maintain, um just bite your tongue, bite your lip and, and don't say anything. Um But I just don't know uh with clients. Um You know, I have a lot of crime practitioners who tell me actually, Matthew, I think, you know, clients can cope much better with the no, with saying no comment um than with the remaining mute. I'm probably 50 50 or if I, if I'm in any way at all, I'm probably a little bit more in favor of remaining mute, but it's a question of, again, professional judgment and I'm really sorry, I can't just give you answers to these things. Um, but you've got to sit down with the client, you've got to know who the officers are. You've got to work out what you're expecting and what the client can cope with. And um, sometimes it just means that rehearsing it with the client a little bit, um, and seeing what the client can actually can actually cope with and what they're remembering that what they're, what they can cope with in private concentration with you um is going to be a lot easier for them than coping with it in the interview and caution. So if your client um is uh decided to not answer questions or produced a written statement and they're not answering questions, um We, we, we covered that in a previous video. Did we not uh consider carefully whether your client can safely either turn take and say no comment or should remain a mute? Um So how vulnerable is your client to um to following turn taking uh with uh engagement? Um Consider uh if the client is remaining a mute, just letting or even no comments on it depends what the situation is, but I'm always in favor of liaising uh a little bit, you know, with the officers and consider letting the interviewer or the interviewers know uh what to expect. Um It again, it's a matter for you. It's how things are going, I've always considered it to be. Uh, so, you know, um professionally appropriate to do that. Um If your client is to say nothing at all, to remain mute throughout, it might be unusual. Um Let the interviewer know and say, look, it's a code C can I get, can we agree beforehand? Um Just how the sort of introductions are going to take place that you're going to do them? I can give you a note to them if you like. Um, and um, when you make your judgment call on that. So, uh the next thing is, uh, you know, would your client's best interests be served by making an opening statement. We're gonna cover opening statements in a bit more detail at the end of this video, but you could say my name is Matthew Hickling. Um, and I am the lawyer for Bertie Biggins, whatever it may be. Um, who I can confirm is also present in this interview room. Uh Mr Biggins will not be saying anything during the course of this interview. Thank you and some, and if I'm going to do that, um I'm actually doing it for the client's benefit. Um And I'm probably talking to the client more than I'm talking to the interviewing officer. I'm probably looking at the client um, getting eye contact with the client. Um, as I say, would not be saying anything during the course of this interview just to sort of reaffirm that and establish that as a situation at the beginning of the process. Um So lawful questioning, remember is putting questions to a person as a suspect, um not asking them their name, it's on the custody record. Um It's just to confirm who is in the room. Um It's not for them to confirm who they are. Um So remember the sort of purpose of it all a person who's a suspected detainee interviewee has a continuing uh right to legal advice and that's covered in code C paragraph six. It says a person who's allowed a solicitor may have them present while they're being interviewed and the solicitor can only be required to leave if the interviewer is unable to properly put. Remember, of course, that for this purpose, the word solicitor refers to accredited rep uh probationary rep um as well. Um And so it was just for the sake of, of, of not over complicating the codes. It's just this one terminal one term is used um a solicitor, but it covers um everybody um who's actually sort of, you know, authorized if you like to do to do the job. Um Code C 6.10 talks about making a decision to remove a solicitor as should be made by a superintendent or reported to a superintendent. Um and if that decision is made, um then a report should be made to um both the solicitor's regulation authority and the legal aid agency. The sr A for the ethics side of things and the LA A um obviously for the suitability and appropriateness of paying for the attendance. Um There's a supplementary note for guidance, which we, we've covered this notes for guidance are not part of the code, but it says the solicitor may intervene. Um in order to, well, again, this is not part of the code of practice. It's just a suggestion. Um It, it's not a wholly bad one to be honest. So seek clarification challenge, improper questioning. Yes. Um, advise the client not to reply while we've talked about, not conduct, not, not sort of causing the client to conduct a private consultation, you know, on, on, on the recording. Um So, um I would, I would always be very wary about that. Um There's nothing really wrong in saying no, no, you don't need to answer. Um, if indeed you're aware, but if you get to that situation, it's feeling it for me, it's feeling as though we're, we're very much on the cusp of the client needing another consultation. Um because that, that I, I wouldn't normally do it or, or want to do it, but it says that um in the note for guidance, uh that it may be that you want to give your client further legal advice in which case, the recording should be suspended, of course. Uh and this any legal advice should be given in private. Um It's not just the process of giving advice, it's taking instructions. Um And so as I said, uh again, previously, uh this uh private consultation is not for you to interview the client, it's for the client to consult with you, um with a view to seeking and receiving legal advice. Um All of which, as you'll remember, um, it's legally privileged communications, unacceptable conduct. Then uh by a solicitor accredited rep, probationary rep uh may only be required to leave um if their conduct is such that the interviewer is unable properly uh to put questions to the suspect. Um And it says in the note for guidance said this only applies if the solicitors approach or conduct prevents or unreasonably obstructs proper questions being put or the suspect's response being recorded. Well, again, it's a note for guidance not, does not form part of the codes, but it's not a wholly bad sort of framework if you like. And some suggestions there note for guidance says, C six Ds gives examples of unacceptable conduct. Um answering questions on the suspect's behalf, providing written replies for the suspect. So, um I'm not really sure that takes us any further. And again, it's just part of a note for guidance. A note for guidance, uh C six E uh says the officer who takes a decision to exclude a solicitor accreted reprobation rep from an interview. Um that should be and has to be a superintendent. Um And that person must be in a position to satisfy the court that the decision was properly made. And so, um, they need to listen to the recording. I have stopped interviews in the past. Um, and the interviewing officers have, they've just been overly aggressive, bullish. I don't know, again, maybe rush of blood to the brain or whatever it may be. Um, and I've remained calm and polite and professional and said officer with respect, can I just please, you know, whatever, whatever and it's, oh, you know, you've just been, I, I've not, I, I honestly I'm not, I've been in the police. I know what it's like. I have empathy with the officers trying to do their job. It's not easy and you're dealing with these people. It can be frustrating when they're not confessing for you and things like that, fully understand that. Um, but, you know, let's just keep calm about all this, let's acknowledge people's rights under the law, um, to either do this or to not do that. Um, and a couple of times II, I said, look, if, if that's the way we're going with this, then I'm happy for a superintendent to, to listen to the recording because whoever it is she or he will, will hear me saying officer please, you know, excuse me, but officer I'm sorry. But um, and they will, they will be able to hear um, that, um, I have been calm, professional and polite, um which uh they may come to a slight of conclusion um about you. Um So that is the recording if you like, is it, it, it, it, it is a good thing for you and, and, and you should always remember that it should always stay a good thing for you. So in summary, then um advising a client who is not going to answer questions, which should it be? No comment, uh Meaning turn taking, um which could lead to engagement or remaining mute when I leave you to exercise your professional judgment. Um And if you've got a client, for example, who has sort of, you know, successfully, you know, been no comment before and has nothing to say, well, it could be that you say, well, actually, yeah, I'm happy that you can cope with that. It could be that you've got someone else who's, who's entirely more vulnerable perhaps, but who nonetheless on balance your thinking in their best interest, they ought to perhaps to uh submit to the process. But you're in a fairly high risk situation here and therefore that risk needs more management. It needs more monitoring. In which case you might in fact uh decide that the client should in fact remain mute, which again may generate the need for you to speak to the officers and say, look, I know this is a little bit unusual but, you know, can we do uh A dot code C and I'm happy to introduce myself and the client but, but she is not going to be, um, speaking at all. Um, what, what, you know, during this entire process. And I don't just mean, once they're sat down, I mean, I mean, going into the room and all that sort of thing because, well, I did train the detectives even outside the room to, to, to, to speak to the person. Um, and, and again, it's very difficult, it feels rude, um, sort of in the corridor or elsewhere than in the interview room uh to, to not respond. But there needs to be a, a time from which the client then does not. And you can say to a client right from now, from now, from this point, now you do not say anything that OK. Um And then of course, the client says, yes, no, I just said from now you do not say anything, OK, that's better. Um Good. And then ask some questions more of the client and, and practice it and make sure the client gets used to that dynamic of question, silence, question, silence, question, silence, um monitor uh the lawfulness of any interview process. Um And is any unlawfulness adversely affecting your client? This is as we'll see at the end of this video, you know, when we look at the critical test that, that can't actually cover this. Um It's, it's, it's not just the questioning in an interview on course show and that is the problem. It's the effect of any questioning um, on your client. So I have had clients where my antenna have been bristling, um, because the questioning has been unlawful. But I've checked my client, I, I checked the situation. Client's been coping absolutely fine. Smiling at me, looking at me one winking at me and I sort of just say, yeah, we know what, we know what this is all about. And I'm thinking, well, I'm not going to object because the effect uh of these attempts by the officer to, to get the client talking, we're OK for the moment, but I'm still actively monitoring it and I mean, actively monitoring it. Um So, um it, it's not just um unlawful questioning is it that is, that is the problem, it's the effect of any uh unlawful questioning uh on uh the client. Um It can be sometimes the effect of lawful questioning on the client as well. Um So question is not oppressive but actually the client's responding quite badly to it. So, um please don't think that it's just unlawful questioning. So I did tell you at the beginning of this video that the police station job is, it's, it's, it's not an easy one. It's one of the, the most difficult in, in, in, in, in criminal practice. Um So you are really out of the sharp end. Um And the decisions you make at the police station, as I've said before are, are irreversible. Um And the, the action that your client takes is, is, is irreversible as well. So remain calm, polite professional at all times seem to be a tire as well. So we've had a look at the interview process. We've had a look at, get them talking, I've included get them talking simply because uh I spent so much time uh in the police um heading up the uh training uh for uh police officers in sort of advanced uh interview techniques. And uh this was a very, very important part of it. Um But before we go any further, let's just have a look and make sure that we know what the college of policing says and what, what the guidance is at the College of Policing website because this is another thing that I want you to have read uh and researched. We've looked at it already, I hope. Um So we kind of know where we're going with this. But the College of Policing has a section on its website called Authorized Professional Practice A PP as they refer to it. Um And if you go to that page, you'll see there's a whole sort of framework of boxes. Um Please do spend some time researching it. Um I would like you to have clicked on as many of those boxes as possible. Um To have a look. Some of it's sort of talking about armed response and some of it's talking about um you know, community policing, but it's very, very useful um to have a look at and I know we're all busy people. But, um, yeah, I, I probably would, would prefer you to do that. Um, at least for a while, uh, than, than, than start, um, you know, sort of browsing, browsing other things online because it's our job at the end of the day, we do need to try to understand this. So please read it, use it for reference. It is occasionally updated. So, um you know, please make sure you're accessing the current uh version. There's lots of mnemonics on there. Um I, I'll give you examples here. Tie advocate, et cetera, the tie trace interview, eliminate, um and advocate. Well, I'm not going to give you the whole thing here but it, it, it's to do with the uh the turnbull guidelines for um you know, identification. And how long did the person have the, have the uh um the individual within their view? What was the lighting like? How far away was it? Do they need glasses, all that sort of stuff? Um So do please um have a read of it because it's useful, it's useful for us uh to, to know um what uh the um you know, what, what the police are being trained to do. I'm also, I've also written a second year module for a degree in professional policing as well. So, um again, II, I draw the officer's attention, attention to that or the prospective officers attention and say look, this is, um, how this all works. Um And I give them challenging scenarios um of um individual RSD and, and, and what the issues that they need to address in the custody suite and things like that. So, it's a good idea, you know, I'm, I'm sort of on both sides, uh and hopefully, therefore, you know, have a nicely balanced view of the whole thing. Um And so, uh we probably could do with um with, with all, all of us um being, being um similar um a similar mindset. Um There's this piece uh framework or model uh depending what they called alternatively called. Um And this is in the A PP section, right? So authorized professional practice and you will see that you, there's a box uh and one of the boxes is called, is entitled investigation. And if you click on that, it will take you to um a, a page that's got, got a list down the left hand column, um or down a left hand column. And one of those will be investigative interviewing. Um And you will see if you look at that, to be honest, you can just write the word piece in the search box because it'll take you straight to it. Um So this is uh the sort of a framework for uh an interview under caution. Um And again, II I write uh scenarios for officers and prospective police officers to actually uh do and, and, and and give them feedback on how the, how well they've done with this. So, p planning and preparation where two P ready should be PP it ready. Um He is engaged and explain again to, is there a, is for account clarification and AC C really, isn't it? So that's the, the, the nub of it basically. So planning a prep is, is, is, is doing or, or, or you're planning research in the law and, and, and, and getting your uh your case theory uh right. Engage and explain is that process, the beginning process that we've talked about. Um and, and making sure that a person who is going to speak because very clearly when I set their exams, I tell the the tutor you are going to answer questions um and not, not sit there, remain mute um because that's not really part of the task there. So again, may be worth remembering that, you know, the officers are, are, are not always trained um that maybe to deal with someone who, who is uh remaining mute or not answering questions. So account, well, this is where you get the person to give their account of what ha what happened, you clarify it by saying, can I just make sure I understand that? So please give more detail of this, more detail of that and then you go in to challenge them um about their account um because they may be giving you a false account of course, which you can then pick apart closure is basically um telling a person what will happen then um, and, and what processes are going to follow and they'll be kept in custody or things like that. Um And uh evaluation is basically reflective, um, is looking back and saying, well, how did that go? What can I do better, et cetera. So this is just AAA framework. If you like for investigative interviewing, it's quite a basic framework. Um But do please have a look at it on the College of Policing website? It, it, it's open source um that they're quite happy for you to have a look at it. So please do considerations then uh are again on there and it says working with legal advisors, it suggests then, um, and I have told you before that I don't necessarily agree with everything that is on uh the College of Policing uh website, um or any other websites to be honest. Um It says who will, this is the lawyer will challenge the legal basis of police action if it's looking? Ok, I think if it's, if I'm happy that it, that it's legal, I'm not going to challenge it. Um So quite, I don't know quite who wrote this or where that's come from. Um II I would challenge any unlawful basis of police action. Yeah. Well, that, that's ok. I'm happy with that. Um, advise their client not to assist the prosecution case. Oh, goodness. Me, so I might actually advise my client not to assist the prosecution against them. Um Well, I don't think that's come as much of a surprise, is it? Um, it says rigorously explore alternative outcomes to charging rigorously. Um Really, um So we will rigorously explore alternative, I mean, sorry, how, how long have you been doing this? Um You know, so I don't, I don't really quite understand who's written this and maybe they just thought it would be a good idea at the time. Um And then we come to this one attempt to persuade investigators that their client is not responsible for the offense. Well, where did that come from? I mean, this is very clearly, I mean, this is not just tacit, this is, this is an innuendo, um suggesting that a lawyer who actually knows that their client is responsible would attempt to persuade the investigator that their client is not responsible. I mean, read it in another way if you like or if you can. Um, but this for me is just a, just a verging on the outrageous here because I have worked with criminal practitioners, criminal lawyers uh for 30 years or more. Um And I have not, I mean, there will always be one or two, I'm sure of course, there will. Um But I've not come across a, a whole body of, of professionals who are so concerned to make sure that they abide by professional ethics. They know that they're under the spotlight of the police station. They know that they could put a foot wrong and get in, get themselves into trouble. They're always desperately concerned to make sure that what they do is ethical. It's correct. It's, it's honest. It, it, it, it is, it may not be open, of course not. Um, you know, you may, you may be keeping people's confidences but, you know, where this came from. I have no idea, but it's a good thing. Is it not? Do we know it's there? Because this is the guidance that's been given by the College of Policing uh to police officers. Um And it just reminds me that, you know, throughout the whole of your life, you know, people would judge you by their own standards, not by yours and you're never going to stop it, I'm afraid. Um So it's worth knowing. So please please have a read of it um and know what guidance is being given. Um And just, and then please just uh know and be happy and reassured that we are in fact who we are. Um and not um that which others may perceive us to be. It also has legal advisers will monitor uh the interview process. Yes. Um And make make representations good, good, good on the investigators compliance. No non-compliance probably. I mean, so if you're not going to comply with pay, that's when I'm gonna make representations. Um and the noncompliance. Well, the investigators compliance with the peace model of interviewing. Oh, obviously, I'm not sure you're doing that, that evaluation particularly well, or, or, you know, counter clarification and challenge. I mean, I'll leave these things, uh, to, to, you have a read of them by all means and make up your own mind, um, and make representations on the suspect's capability of coping physically and mentally with the interview. Well, mentally is probably the thing. I mean, unless they're sort of tired or, um, you know, physically, um, you know, they'd rather conjures up some rather different ideas, doesn't it? But, um, yeah, usually, um, it, it, it's their ability mentally. So, yes, absolutely. Right. Um, you know, suspects capa capacity, I suppose to, to cope. Yes. Um, good um, interventions then. Well, you know, the college of policing, uh, suggests that we may intervene to provide legal advice and, well, that's a suspension of the interview, as I've said. Um, request clarity on questions. Yeah. Possibly, I suppose I would need to be, um, if I don't understand the question then probably chances are the client doesn't if I understand the question but I'm not sure that the client does. Um, well, it depends whether they're answering questions and whether I think that it, it actually is going to, um, affect them in, in one way or maybe if a client is answering questions and maybe answers the question that hasn't been asked, maybe, I don't know. Um, but to prevent oppressive, insulting questions. Yes, thank you. Yeah. Um I said to prevent, I'm not sure you're gonna prevent them, but you make some polite and firm professional representations, say obviously with respect. Um You know, your, your question is becoming oppressive or, or, or officer, I'm sure if I asked you to reflect on that, you know, you, you'd appreciate that actually is the use of the word that is actually insulting. Um Well, I'm not even sure I would use the word insulting. Um I might say offensive, but I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say insulting because it implies something that's actually deliberate. Um, rather than the effect it's having on somebody um to prevent questioning based on supposition. Mm Maybe. Um, it depends on how the effect it's having on the client. Um But if it's a speculative question that's not referring to any evidence then or any facts. Uh then yes, I mean, I've got my antenna bristling. Um, you know, like, like a good old beetle here, um, to prevent questioning based on undisclosed material. Yes. Um, and that would be something where I said officer, can I please just stop you there? That's not been disclosed prior to the interview and the caution. Um, you know, this is not a forum for disclosure, this is a forum for asking questions. So could I just ask you please to, to suspend the interview under caution so that you can actually give me this disclosure. Um and, and then, then we'll take it from there. Um So yes, um or object to irrelevant questions. Well, again, it depends what the effect it's having on your client. But yeah, there is potentially a, a basis for, for all of these. Um And again, please do have a read of it. Um It, it's, it's part of our sort of fundamental education to know all of this stuff and to be aware of what is on the website, it can be changed quite quickly. So please do access the latest version. So a summary then um is College of Policing or cop uh guidance um authorized professional practice, please go to that section. Investigation, click on that box. Um Do have a look at at all of it. Um But of course, particularly for the purpose of this video, investigative interviewing, um read it, check it from time to time and as I say, you might not agree with all of it. Um But at least uh be um aware of it. Some of it is very good. Um some of it um is, is quite good. Um and others uh Well, probably just needs a bit of qualification perhaps. So, having done the first three items, uh elements of this video, let's now move on to seating and eye contact because um this can be uh quite significant. Um countless police station lawyers have said to me over the years that uh their clients have, has decided to get no comment but then started answering questions. Well, uh, and, and most, most lawyers would blame their client. They, oh, you know, what can you do? You know, clients? Um, you think, hold on a second, have you thought about turn taking? Um, you know, did you, were you aware of that? You know, did, did, have you, did, was it a risk? How are you managing that risk? What monitoring were you doing? Um and so, um turn taking can actually lead to engagement and it can also uh be exacerbated by seating configuration. So let's just have a look at how that can affect the way in which we communicate, we establish communication with each other um by eye contact. So it's much better that I'm here delivering this video to you by, by using my eye contact with you, you're looking at the screen at the moment and I'm hopefully engaging with you. If this were merely my voice, it wouldn't, hopefully, hopefully you can imagine it wouldn't maybe be so engaging. Um I could use my voice and, you know, use my expression in my voice a little bit more, but it still wouldn't be the same. So, you know, just, just having my mug shot down at the bottom there at least gives you something to engage with. Um So unless we're visually impaired, we do use our eyes to, to help us to communicate first impressions, say perception from visual cues. Um Again, psychologists and not me, but they, they reckon it takes us between 0.1 seconds to up to seven seconds to actually, or should we just say, weigh somebody up as it were? Um And I'm sure if you think about it, when you meet someone for the first time, it doesn't take you very long uh to, to weigh them up um and observing the facial expressions. Um We do that uh continuous monitoring. So if you're talking to somebody or you're engaging with them socially professionally, whatever you will look at their faces and, and, and you, if, if you can, you see them um and you will use your, those visual cues if you like. So if you're talking to somebody, let's say, socially and, and, and they're sort of looking over there. Um and, and, and you carry on talking to them when you're getting the message, are you that they're not actually very interested and they're looking at something else. So you'd probably stop. You'd probably think, well, you know, yes, they are talking to me and I'm talking to them, but we're not really engaging here. Um And so non verbal communication, we are told uh comprises the majority of our communication message. Um and the verbal expression that we use is 38%. So hopefully, um I don't carry on droning on this in the video and just use them very monitor or voice because we do use expression uh pauses, rise, raise and lower the tone of our voice and the volume to, in order to give what we say uh some proper meaning, the words that we use are much less important. We can say things uh the same thing in a different way. We can use uh different words to express the same message. Well, there you are. I just did it uh twice in case you didn't notice to rewind the video for the last 10 seconds, play it back again. So in a client consultation or, or even a police officer with a witness interview, um what I'm doing, I'm sort of taking an overhead view here. Um And this is uh somebody that sat at a table, somebody else sat at the table. Uh And this could be um a lawyer with a client or in a consultation or it could be uh the police with a witness and this is a collaborative um uh configuration. Uh And we establish visual communication, it could also be across a table um which is a little bit more confrontational layout. But um it's one that we can work with. Um And this is direct eye contact. And so um you have this or should say the client has direct eye contact with you. And therefore, the line of visual of, of communication is, is, is quite, is very visual that non verbal line of communication um which which includes um the sort of the, the, the, the constant um appraisal and reappraisal visually uh of the person we're communicating with a standard police interview then. Well, I, I've just given an example here, you've got, you, you've got a table there and a recording uh media on one side, you got a suspect there and a lawyer interviewer, one interviewer, two, I mean, it's not always like this, it can be very different. I've just given an example um of, of how it often is. Um and you know, what can we say about eye contact? Well, the people with eye contact sort of across the table and therefore the suspect has eye contact now, not with the lawyer, but with the interviewer one and principally, and then possibly interviewer two, the lawyer doesn't have any eye contact with the client anymore. And so if you sort of take the interviewers away and just consider the situation uh with the the suspect and the lawyer, there's no visual communication left here there, there, there's no, there's, there's none of that sort of facial visual reassurance that nonverbal reassurance. Um and it's very difficult um to see how your client is coping with the interview under caution. So I said to you, you know, it's not so much the questions, it's your client's response to the questions, how is your client coping? Um if your client is vulnerable, I said you need to assess the risk which then needs to be monitored and managed. And this is actually quite difficult now because we have no way of actually having a nonverbal communication with the client. And it's quite deliberate when I um trained the, the police doing pretty, pretty much anyway. Um It was to say, get the lawyer to sit next to the client because what you're doing is you're inhibiting that um that uh communication there. Um And what it can result in is you establishing more uh direct communication with the suspect than the lawyer now has. Um So no visual communication is a major element of that communication process. The client may start to sort of feel abandoned a little bit because they don't have that eye contact anymore. Um Clients looking at the officers, the officers now if they're up to it, and I'm not suggesting that all of them are because as we said, some of them are better than others. But if you've got somebody who is uh either properly trained or maybe intuitive, um then they may use that to establish visual communication um and build on whatever happened before you remember an earlier video we did about you establishing rapport. And I said, when you get into the anti caution, try to make sure that that rapport exists, that it's there to whatever, to the extent that you're able uh with the client to establish it, it won't always happen as you want it. You know, it, it's a question of fact, degree and professional judgment, but to the extent that you can get it, um then it, it, it, this is, this is when it matters. Um and officers can use that to influence the client. And you know, there have been in so many interviews under caution. Iii I probably learned more about police station practice, not by doing it, but by actually going riding shotgun with other people with solicitors, with accredited reps, with probationary reps. I have been down to the police station, uh, many times, uh, riding shotgun. Um, and I've learned far more, I've learned a lot more about what other people do as well as well as what I do. So I'm not here just telling you what I do. I, I hopefully sort of bring it all together as well as sort of having been in the police and, and, and training the police in, in, in these skills as well. Um, but very often I find the lawyers actually just ignoring the client. You know, now we've come into a room and something else is going on. It's not a consultation anymore. So I'm busy away writing notes and here I go away. Um, and the client is next to me. Uh, and quite frankly, I'm not even aware of the fact that the client, um, is turn taking, possibly leading to engagement and all that sort of thing. Um, why not? This is desperately unskilled, this is what we should be doing this is, this is, this is a assessing the risk, identify the risk, assess it, monitor it, ongoing monitoring and management of the situation. Um And, you know, I've often thought it was writing notes more important than supporting the client. Probably not. It, it, it's on a recording anyway and you don't need to write down all of the answers and, and all of the questions and all that sort of thing. So it might seem a nice comfortable thing for you to do. Um, it's not what we're there for you there to support the client. So when I go riding shotgun to the police station, that's me, I'll get myself over there if I possibly can and I think I normally can. Um, and I always, um, very, again, very polite and professional with the interviewers. II, I never, once, um, has anybody apart from one or two today or who's there tonight and I've said, and shaken hands, hello, you know, whatever. Um, and being, being courteous and polite and professional, of course. Um, and I've never had an objection to me sitting there and I say, oh, I just keep out of the way a little bit. Um, and, and sit over here, um, I don't discuss this with anybody. Um, but you can see what I'm doing. Um, I'm actually, um, now out to the US United Side, um, because they would have to turn around to look at me, um, and the direction that I'm looking at, well, I'll leave you to work that out from the slide. I think you can do that because what it leads to, of course, during the interview under caution. Um is that the suspect has nice ac eye contact with me and the number of times I have been there. In fact, I I would say in some interviews under caution, I just come away wondering how the client could possibly have coped, you know, without me being there just giving them those visual cues, you know, just not answering questions for them, not trying to give them any legal advice. That's not what I'm there for. Um Just to provide that bit of human uh reassurance and whatever just to let them know everything's fine, you're doing ok and, and whatever you've agreed with your lawyer that seems to be, be now playing out. Um And it's remarkable really just how, um how, how, how effective that can be. And when I do work with the uh the law firms who do sort of, you know, serious uh the, the white collar crime, I don't say serious, not every everything is serious here, it can be serious to somebody, you know, um you know, summary only offense can be quite serious for somebody. But um when they um have got to say private clients who are accused of white collar crime, you know, um uh maybe uh insider dealing and price fixing and all that sort of thing. Um, and I, I do suggest they might consider, um, going down with two lawyers, it might cost the client a little bit more. But actually if you get yourselves configured in the right way and you get yourself sorted out, so, you know who's doing what, um, it can actually be, um, be very supportive. Um, but I'll leave it with you, obviously. Um, I'm not going to be there and you're not going to have somebody else there. But I'm asking you to consider um, if we just go back to where we were, which is here, um What the situation is um as compared with um how uh the client is, um, you know, with, with me there. So I just want to leave you with these thoughts because, uh you can tell that I've always spent uh um a long time, uh you know, with the police, um and investigators doing it. So here's a case study. Um I was actually um told by one solicitor. Um, it just amused me and I thought I'm going to include it into the video. So, um in order to exclude the solicitor at the start of an interview on the course, the interviewing officer and his colleague ushered the solicitor to sit down on a seat in the corner of the room behind the client. So the lawyer now is the solicitor sitting here, um which is sort of right out of the way. Um And this is quite deliberate. I mean, it's ridiculous really. So, you know, it's so obvious, um that, you know, you sit back there so that your client is deprived of his access to, to legal advice. Um And we'll just get on and establish some good old eye contact across the table over here. Um The lawyer says that they told me that his opening statement, um that was for the benefit of the recording. I've been told to sit in a position where my client is not able to seek and receive legal advice. I'm now standing up, moving across the room and sitting in a position where my client now has access to legal advice as is his legal, right? While the chairs were bolted down, I, I'm right in saying, um quite deliberately in those positions and anyone who tells you that it's for, you know, safety or security purposes, well, have a think about that. Um And so what did the lawyer do? Um Well, this is the lawyer, they sort of moved up and moved over and sat on the table and perched if you like on the edge of the table, I'm not suggesting that you do this. Um But it just goes to show the sort of ridiculous nature of the situation, um, and um hilariously, um, and again, I, I'm not suggesting that you do this at all, um because you would sort this out beforehand. Um But it rather does illustrate the point quite nicely. The interviewing officer then said for the benefit of the recording and I can see the person I'm interviewing and the solicitor said we sorted it out. I just said, like if you've got better facilities here, so the person you're interviewing can actually seek and receive legal advice. Um I think that it was just somebody thought it was a good idea to bolt the chairs down in that configuration And uh he probably was the first solicitor to come along and uh and take issue with it. But um yeah, probably better to take issue at the beginning and say um with respect and I'm not sitting there. Um I've got a different room here because otherwise I think I need another consultation with the client. It may be that the client is not prepared to cooperate with the process in which the client does not have any um you know, communication with me because what the officers doing, the officers got every everybody in, in their sites. Um And so anything you do, uh the officer can see, um which is what, which is what they want really. Um So I leave you with that thought. Um please, I'm not suggesting that you do it to get it sorted out beforehand. Um And again, um you can be a bit more professional, but it was a funny story. Um So um authorized uh interviewers are authorized to different tiers um by reference to their level of training. Um Please do research all this. Um Again, this is separately. Um There's a professional, a professionalizing investigation program, uh PP levels, I'd like you to go online and research those please. That also please have a look at the structured interview protocol. The S IP uh from 2015, it probably may not take you much further than we've done, but it, but it's useful research. Um and the Crown Prosecution Service CPS interview protocol um with the uh National Police Chiefs Council, uh the N PC C again, um doesn't take things much further, but um it's useful to have a look at. So please please go online research, those have a look at the, the, the documents and, and read them so that you're aware um of um of the different uh types of interviewer in summary, then um assess your client's vulnerability if you can consider how your client uh will or should be able to communicate with you. If they need to join the interview of caution, consider how you communicate with them. If you need to agree a line of communication, there's all sorts of things you can do. There's treading on foot and knocking a leg or whatever it may be, but um whatever is appropriate um for that particular client. Um I'm not suggesting any physical contact is, is required here at all. Um So it may well be that it, so it's just you saying I just said, look, if I suggest that you need legal advice, um then please. Um and I did this with the client once it didn't work, so it doesn't always work. Um I just said, you know, could I forgive me officer? But I, I could I just ask perhaps that my, my client needs to um get, get some legal advice. And the client basically said, no, I'm fine. Thank you, Miss Heling. Um So um if practicable practice communicating in a simulated configuration, so um if it's practicable, and as I say, if the environment is a safe environment, if you're happy that you're in a safe environment, you may practice communicating in a simulated configuration. Otherwise, it may be that the facilities that you've got do not actually afford that or it may be that your assessment of the risk, is that probably you'll just stay by the door? Um So please, your safety comes first, as I have said previously. So we've had a look at uh the first four elements of this uh video and we're now just coming on to opening statements and interventions to finish it off. Um So if you are going to make an opening statement in an interview under caution, I want you to be clear who is it that you are talking to? Is it to the officer? Is it to the client? Is it to the judge in court when you, when you want this to be played? Um and I want you to imagine, uh, anything you say being played back in court, um, that's one good thing about being a litigation lawyer, which I am both civil and criminal, um, is, is that you kind of know that anything you write anything that's recorded, uh, may well be put before a court, um, in 12 months, two years time. And so you basically make sure that anything, uh, you, uh, you put into, into a recording, into writing whatever it may be, um, is something that can be played back in court or read in court. Um, so it needs to be polite, calm and professional and what I've put here is it, uh, my name is Matthew Hickling and I am, um, Mr Big, I don't know why, but Mr Biggins, I've just made that up already. Um, a legal representative, I confirm that that Mr Beggin is also present in the room. Obviously, as I've told you, Mr Bigs will be exercising their right to remain silent and none of your questions will be answered. Thank you. Um, so be polite and professional and if that's what you want to say, it could be that this is talking to the client. It's just basically making sure that the client understands that what you've done is you've set, set the tone if you like and set the theme, um, for the intervenor, it may be that you're talking to the judge and this could be, um, to support an application in court perhaps to um petition the judge to exclude uh the evidence of a no comment uh interview because it might not be helpful for your client at court. We don't know at the police station and how the thing is going to play out. Um So you might just be thinking, well, I, I just probably may maybe just cover this option. Um And I have done this. Um So it's just imagine it being played back in court. Who am I talking to answer the judge? So even though I begin with the officer, I'm not actually talking to the officer at all. Uh the disclosure you've given fails to comply with the legal requirements. Consequently, Mr Biggins detention. Uh and this interview uh being conducted unlawfully. Um Mr Biggins will not be answering your questions but has agreed to cooperate with the interview process um in order to expedite matters. Now, I'm not talking to the officer here. I'm not trying to be, be awkward. Um I'm just talking to the judge here. I'm thinking actually, maybe it's looking like a case that could end up in court. Um I am also as I told you a trial lawyer. Um So, you know, might I want to make an application to exclude the evidence of the interview? Well, if it's being conducted unlawfully and I've said at the time, um that it's being conducted unlawfully, I've brought it to the officer's attention the judge will want to say, I'm sorry, on what basis was it being conducted unlawfully? Well, this wasn't complied with, that wasn't complied with. Ok. So you told the police that's right. What do they do about it? They do anything about it? Um, they just ignored, it, ignored the lawyer. So I'm, I'm more inclined to the judge to think. Ok. Um, then in that case, I'll exclude it. So if you are making a statement, uh just know who you're talking to. Um It may not be the person you're physically addressing um interventions. Um Anchor any interventions you have, you, you're going to make in the interview to the law. So here's one that's not anchored to the law officer. You've asked that question three times already. Can we move on please? Where's the law in that? This is, this is not a lawyer talking, is it, this is just somebody having a conversation that's not what we're there for. We're lawyers so anchored to the law officer, forgive me for interrupting. But, and I thought I would do, you don't have to do that. Um The repetitive nature of your question is becoming oppressive. Um If you have any further questions to ask, please do so. If not, may I suggest that this interview should now be terminated? This is the lawyer talking there because as you, as you remember in Code C, do you remember um code C 11? We, we said that if the question must not be oppressive. Neither must you put the consequences of answering or not answering um with, with a couple of small exceptions which you'll read about in the codes. Um But here, I'm saying not that the questioning has been repetitive, which is entitled to be. So police officers can ask the same question two times, three times. Absolutely. They might get a different answer, ask the question in a different way. It's perfectly acceptable provided that's not oppressive. And so that's why uh this, this this um uh intervention here um is anchored to the law, make sure it's unarguable. You're talking about the law here. So in summary, if you make an opening statement, be clear in your mind who you're talking to. Is it the officer? Is it the client? Is it the judge, is it two of them or is it all three? Um So be clear why you're doing it and who you're talking to um actively monitor the conduct of an interview um and understand the effect of the uh turn taking and leading to engagement that the the seating arrangements, understand the risk that you are there to monitor and manage. Um and obviously monitor the, the the the lawfulness of the questioning and also the effect of questioning on your client. Um If you make interventions, if they're required, anchor them to the law and let the officer know that you're being professional polite and a lawyer. Um And remember it's all being recorded. So, uh, make sure that, um, again, um, whoever you're talking to, um, it may, it, it's all being recorded could of course be that you're talking to the superintendent when, when you're being threatened, um, you know, with the, with the exclusion. So, um, and again, I, I've had some difficult situations from time to time. I have to say overwhelmingly the officers that I've dealt with are, are just fine. Um, and they have been very professional, um, and very calm. Um, get the process done, understand they, they understand and, uh, and, you know, it's not just the experienced ones but even some of the less experienced ones understand what's going on. They understand your job, they understand the client's not gonna drop themselves in it. So we've been talking about some sort of, you know, the minority of cases where this sort of, um, uh, learning if you like, um, it sort of comes into play. Um, we've not just been talking about the situations that are, uh, you know, calm and clear and, and, and are conducted, uh, without any, any problems or any issues. Um, and hopefully they will be, uh, the majority of attendances for you. Um, but again, that could be challenging because if you get into the mindset, you, you've been to the police station maybe 56 times and everything's been fine and, you know, you're, you're thinking, oh, this is going to be ok again and then it's not take you by surprise so you need to be, be ready. Um, and I think I've mentioned before, you know, I've been down the police station, you know, with, with, with an officer and I been been absolutely fine and see the officer again. It's absolutely fine. He fellow, well, me and get the job done. Um, and then you've got a really awkward situation and suddenly, you know, you're, you're saying, you know, can I just have a chat, you know, is not going to be saying anything, you know, whatever. And um, and they can almost look at you and say, you know, what's going into you. It's I'm not discussing it. This is just a different case, a different, you know, different situation. So be ready, I think is uh my message here, um be ready to deploy these if you need to um, and understand um what is going on the dynamic of the situation. So let's have a look at the uh the, the, the assessments here um for in the written exam, how might this stuff come up? Well, questions, um, questions in the written exam will flow no matter what advice you gave. So a question might say, how would you advise the client about the strength of the evidence? And then what, what advice would you give to the client about answering questions and you will, may come up to, um, you know, you, you, you think Well, I, I'll give an answer to that. Um, and the next question then says what your client decides to answer questions or whatever it might be, you say? Well, hang on a minute. That's not the advice I gave. Is that wrong then? Well, no, don't worry. Um, it, it, it's the, the question sometimes have to be written that way, um, in order to give you the next question. Um, so, uh, please, you're just dealing with a one short paragraph um of um uh an exam, it's not reality. Um And so please do not be troubled by a written exam that suggests what um what the client has decided to do it. It won't say, uh you decide to advise your client to answer questions, it'll just say whatever you've advised, your client decides to answer questions or whatever. And that means that the question can flow on to um the next element of an interview under caution. Um It might also ask you to respond to unlawful behavior. I'll give you some examples here. So there might be that the client, you know, the officer says, um you know, you're going to be kept in custody for further questioning and you're thinking, I'm sorry, I can't see any lawful ground for that. So it might ask you um both in the written exam and all the critical test to um to, to challenge that and say officer, um that, that will go back um to the basis uh for keeping someone in custody without charge. Um Is it necessary uh for the purpose um of, of um obtaining evidence by questioning you've just questioned? Um, you know, you, you, you have done the job now. Um, so that there's no, as far as I can see the same provision that permits you to keep this person in custody without charge, um for, for further questioning. Um, unless the circumstances are flagging them up. Um It may be that uh denying the exam talks about denying requests by the appropriate adult. Do you remember earlier on, in the video? I said, you know, suspect can ask this in which case you're the suspect's agent or it may be the appropriate adult asks it. Um and it would expect you to know um that the appropriate adult can make these requests as well um or it could be, you know, clients, it is unfit or, or, or it was looking fragile or whatever it may be. Um And that is AAA flag in the uh in the exam um to uh for you um to perhaps take uh take some form of action or say what action you would consider taking um in the light of that development in the critical incidence test. Cit um The interviewing officer may put questions unlawfully. Um Now this can be tricky because as I've said to you, um it's not just the lawfulness or otherwise of the questioning, it's actually um the effect it has on the, on the client. Uh but you can't do this in the critical instance, test. We will talk about it when we come to the video on the, on the actual test itself. But that's how it can come up. There will be focus only on the questioning. So it should be something obvious like the interviewing officer saying if you refuse to answer, we'll have to arrest your sister. Then again, that's one of the prohibits questions. Is it not? Um or it might be that your legal advisor, it is, is not to answer questions, but it's your decision at the end of the day. Well, you know, is this putting questions to a person about their involvement or suspected involvement in a criminal offense? No. Um And so therefore does it a local law fault? No, it doesn't. And so it may be um that you need to respond to that in a professional fashion and finally, uh in the uh portfolio. Um If your client is not answering questions, uh if your client is answering questions, then again, there is a need to monitor and manage the situation just as much. Um if your client is not answering questions, um which is I put it likely to be more often than not. Um because as we saw in a previous video, you'll only advise your client to answer questions. If you think that the client has something to gain from that um you need to explain in your portfolio, why it was in the in the client's best interest to, to submit to the process of being questioned? And if it was the client's best interest on balance, which it very often will be. Um then why did you advise the client to actually answer no comment, in other words, turn taking um or why did you advise the client to remain mute? Um And how did you rehearse the client for that experience? And what communication methods did you agree? Um during the course of the interview under caution? And why was it appropriate uh with that client? And then say how um you um assessed the risk and how you manage that risk in the process um and or communicated with your client before the interview during the interview and also after the interview. Um and how, how obviously you dealt with the, the office as well during that. So what we've looked at in this rather lengthy video um is uh the interview process, get them talking College of Policing Guidance. Uh which please do have a look at those as well as the code of practice. Um seating and eye contact and the effect of it on uh communications um opening statements and interventions. Um And that um is the ninth and final video. Uh This is uh of uh a series at the police station can't wait to take the tie off um for our next video we're going to be outside the police station and I can get back into, um, some more, some more open necked, uh, gear. Um, but while we've been at the police station, it's been important to be dressed for the part. So each one of the nine videos I have made sure that notwithstanding the heat of the day, uh, I have actually, um, been dressed for the occasion. So please, as I said, look the part, so we have to come uh the criminal process and having a look at the actual assessments themselves. We've been introducing them if you the assessments as you can probably know if you've been following these videos um through their, through the sequence um that we've been gradually introducing the um assessments and, and how they might incorporate the things that we've done. We had learning objectives at the beginning of this. Um which II I did say pause the video, have a look, make sure that we've covered them and we also have our learning outcomes, which is the skills element. Um And so this is what um we are have been trying to um help you to uh become equipped to do. And so we've come to the end of our um police station um part nine. And it just leaves me to say thank you for watching. Uh That's the end of this video. Please confirm your knowledge and understanding using the consolidating questions that will be posted online. Um, and it just leaves me to, uh, to say thank you for watching. I hope you found it useful. Um, and, and I'm sorry that I'm not giving you a sort of straightforward answers, but a lot of this job is actually um assessing it. It, it's making your judgment decisions, um, sometimes getting them right, sometimes finding that you've not really got them completely right. Um, but that's kind of life. Um, and as long as you keep working at it, as long as you keep, uh, you know, trying to get better, do the research, do the reading go beyond these videos. All I can do is sort of give you pointers. Um, and, uh, I hope, I hope you've been, you've enjoyed them. I'm trying to pass on the experience that I've had for the last sort of, you know, 40 years, 40 50 years. It's a long time anyway. So, um, hopefully we, uh, we, we've got somewhere with it. I look forward to seeing you in the next video when, um, I can actually dress down a little bit. So, um, thank you for watching and, um, and goodbye. See you next time.
PSRAS - What you need to know
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PSRAS – What you need to know: Quiz 
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