Hello and welcome everybody very pleased to welcome you to today's session through Data law. Destiny session two of the four sessions. I'm going through with you on the issues surrounding personal protection order's current law and relevant procedure, my name's after Mahmoud and very pleased to welcome you to today's session. As you know then this is the second session of four where last time I spent some time in going through with you some elements of the family law act of 96. And we're going to be today going through some of the elements surrounding the procedure insofar as applications for non molestation and occupation orders are concerned. So I'll be taking you through some of the law again, some of the criteria, paperwork and also somebody uh leading case law and statutory provisions and so far as this is concerned and in later sessions were looking at elements relating to remedies, enforcement and also other forms of relief as well as always. I put the copyright acknowledgement here for you. So with this then last time I spoke to you about Normal station orders and occupation orders and what we then need to think about is if I am instructed to be applying for either or both of these, then how do I go about doing that in terms of the application. So I put some useful practical tips here to help you along the way. So firstly, when you're seeing clients of course very, very important to give them all the options and the pros and cons of each one in this area. Sometimes you may find that clients uh will say to you look, I know what you're saying and maybe I should be going phenomenal station order and or occupation order. But actually on one to see if a warning letter will suffice. So give them as an option. You know, they may, they may say, look, can you do a letter to the other party and warn them against the consequence of what may happen if they continue with that form of conduct? You know, next time I call the police, next time I'll go to court. Don't make the decision for the clients, you know, let them decide as to the way forward and obviously give them the drawback of the action they want to take. What the positives, the pros and cons of that are very important to put together a plan which prioritizes their immediate needs, covers the medium and short term needs of course and reassures them. Yeah that are all without. And try not to overwhelm the client with too much information. It's easier said than done sometimes. And be realistic. You know, if the client is saying to you look, how quickly can I get this order unless you're going for the order without notice. You do have to then be realistic and say, look, we are going to be asking for this order to be heard unnoticed. We won't get a hearing until a particular date and therefore be realistic as when you're likely to get that date. And also as to how long the order may potentially be made for in that regard. Mhm. So if you are going to be pursuing the order without notice, then I would suggest start preparing your paperwork as early as possible. So sometimes if you've seen the clients in the morning then as you take instructions you also have to keep a careful eye on going to paperwork together because if you're going with that notice, you need to get that paperwork to the court as quickly as possible. Of course. So therefore documents are going to need to be pursuing disorder. Our first and foremost, the application Form f. l. 41 So there's going to be the application form that you'll be completing. Uh and then there should be a statement and support, You should be putting together draft order uh funding confirmation. So that's where if you're, for example your legal aid public funding practice and you have exercised delegated functions uh and therefore emergency funding is then being available through that means then of course you need to confirm that by doing a lots of issue of funding certificate in that regard and confirming that as well. There's of course no coffee pair before these applications Phenomenal administation occupation or as the coffee went about seven or so years ago. Okay, so that's the paperwork you get together and therefore in terms of the position with funding, particularly if you're seeking these non molestation occupation orders then in terms of the funding for that you'll be exercising delegate functions as I mentioned or if your client is paying you privately, then of course you'll be having a fix for your value rate, don't you be charging on. But also it's important note that insofar as the position with obtaining evidence of domestic abuse for the purpose of funding for other family law matters, whether it's a private Children or application, whether it's safe for divorce, whether it's for finances. Then there was this amendment that came in a few years ago as a result of The civil legal aid Procedure Amendment ranks number two Of 2017 which basically that stature instrument removed the time limit upon the evidence that can be accepted. You remember that when Lesbo first came in legal aid sentencing and punishment offenders act. When That came into effect in April 2013 to demonstrate evidence of domestic violence and child abuse, one could only Go back up to 20 four months in terms of the evidence. But then that was subsequently Changed in 2015 to permit up to five years and also incorporating financial abuse. And it wasn't until 8th January 2017, 2018 that the time limit uh, was actually removed and they fought this removed a time limit evidence uh, could be accepted within also, just so, you know, because of of course the position would be covid um, a pandemic. Given the way in which of course we've all had to work bearing in mind limiting uh use of paper of course, because of the risk of contamination. This is what illegal Agency has been providing a lot of updates in terms of the contingency response or the last update for this was the 6th of August This year. Six of always 2021, you got a link there for you about the legal aid contingency response and also working with clients, Which was also dated. Last update was 6th of always 2021 in so far as working with clients and how information maiden be obtained uh through for example, not no requirement for it to be through letter heading, for example. So very important to get the information from the client to ensure eligibility for funding, but sometimes it may not be as easy given the limitations and restrictions of being able to access firsthand information. Uh the legal identity of course had expanded the various domestic violence requirements, evidence which could be obtained. So as of nine April 2020, various changes were brought in then, largely because of the covid pandemic Andy lockdowns that we have. So for example, removing the need for evidence to be submitted on a letter headed paper were required. So therefore that provision came in also allowing additional evidence to be submitted by email. So for example, something from the police for example to confirm that has been arrest or there's been a conviction. Otherwise that could be done by way of email, rather non letter headed paper for examples and therefore allowing solicitors also to provide an email documenting that had spoken to a member of the police and received confirmation that the other person had for example received a caution for example, and that could then be used for purposes of evidence of the what's required for the purpose of the lesbo requirements and linked with that. We also Had on the 15th of May 2022 civil legal aid procedure amendment legs which admitted under definition of face to face provider for the purpose of regulation. So for example, the mayan meetings, the mediation information and assessment meetings could be conducted virtually for example, uh and an individual apply for family and mediation wouldn't need to attend to provide his premises in person for example. So therefore we have those provisions. It's also important to note that when you're dealing with domestic abuse injunction applications and response is very important to be aware of the participation directions. So this is where you've Got participation in proceedings and giving evidence. These were the participation directions which came into effect in November 20 17 Part three and Practice Direction three A about vulnerable persons and participation in proceedings and of course giving evidence. So participation direction means that a general case management direction made for a personal assisting the witness or party than to give evidence of participate in proceedings. And the court therefore must consider whether parties participation is like to be diminished by means of vulnerability And I saw whether it's necessary to make one more participation directions. Now this is where in the fourth session of this two hour session, I'd be giving you a brief insight into the domestic abuse Act of 2021 which got royal assent on 29 April this year. And one of the things that that act is bringing in is the notion that in family proceedings for example, in civil and criminal proceedings uh there is therefore the need to give regard to the additional changes to special measures so that in family proceedings for example when there are allegations of domestic abuse that are being raised then the court is to assume that by reason of doors, allegations of domestic abuse that are raised that the witness or party is presumed to be in a situation where there is an element of vulnerability and therefore that's where the court then needs to be giving regard to what kind of any special measures or participation direction should be made available in those circumstances. Okay, so it's important to bear that in mind also. Mm Now if you are going to be pursuing one of these orders normal station under occupation orders then the paperwork is first and foremost The application on form f. l. four to one. So you need to be filling in this form easy enough to fill in. It's not difficult. So page one of the form you need to be sitting at your client's address, name and address. And of course if they wish to keep their address withheld, if they're in a refuge or the living somewhere where they don't wish the responded to know. And of course you can withhold your client's address but you do need to be completing and sending to court To form c. eight which the confidential address forms or at least the court has a note of your client's address in those circumstances. Also on the front page you should be indicating whether you're seeking which order you're seeking, Whether it's a non molestation under occupation order. And also you need to indicate on the form whether or not you're seeking in order to be made without notice or not. Then he got pages two and 3. We need to be set that they're the basis upon Which you're satisfied. The court that declined is associated with the respondent. So for the purpose of section 62 63 This 15 categories of applicant and you need to be taking one of those to confirm that your client is associated with the respondent. And on page three of the form you need to be setting out the fact you're seeking anomalous station or they say says that you set up briefly the terms of the order. And this is where you can then also a cross reference to a draft order as well for the benefit of the court. Page three also requires you to set out the address of dwelling house that the occupation only relates to and pays four. You need to take one of the six boxes which essentially relates to the various categories of applicant for the purposes of the occupation orders. With its sections 30 3 35 36, or 38. So you gotta take one of those boxes which corresponds then with one or more of those sections of the act. Page five then requires you to give details of the home, so whether it's registered or otherwise. And also page five requires you to set out any additional orders you're seeking, such as an order under section 40 for the respondent for example, continue to pay the mortgage event or the other bills in that regard and indicate whether the property is subject to a mortgage or rented or otherwise. And if you are going to be needing any special measures, any special arrangements are caught, whether it's an interpreter, uh advocate intermediary, uh special facilities for somebody who may be disabled, for example, and that's where you need to be stipulating that On the under form as well. So that's the f. l. 4- one. Yeah. Now, in addition to that, we also need to be putting together the statement in support and sometimes there's a question mark by lawyers as to how best to draft a statement. Well, I would suggest that when you are putting a statement together, bear in mind a statutory criteria sort of factors which the judge has to consider in the first session. I mentioned this when I spoke to you specifically about occupation orders. So when you are doing a statement in support, obviously set out names and addresses. Unless you're going to keep the address withheld as I mentioned earlier, set out the order or orders you're seeking. And I think it's important to set out a background to the application. So background when they got together, whether they're married, otherwise, when they started, their relationship is important to set that out from the outset. And then I would suggest you set out to each factor of abuse that you're relying upon and put that in a chronological account going forward. Then go through criteria for the orders. Maybe have subheadings where you're setting out a position which has needs, for example, uh, the position with, for example, like say housing needs set up position with their financial resources, the health and their conduct. So go through those factors. Very important. Set out why your client feels that they will suffer more harm than the other person. Well, if the order were not made as opposed to being made. So, that's effectively significant harm. Test mentioned the position with morning letter. Uh, whether it's helped. Whether it was sent and why not mention involvement with the police and summarise why you seek in the order. That's very important. If you are seeking the order without notice, you must also set on your statement as to why it's being sought without notice. And if you're going for an occupation order, for example, and you're seeking for a power of arrest to be attached. And this is where you should be making Reference in your statement to Section 47. So, to any evidence of violence or threats of violence which have been utilized, which have been used where it would be necessary then to attach a power of arrest unless it of course is otherwise or feels otherwise. Okay, so like I say, indicate whether or not your apply for a without notice order and the reasons for that and all sort of position with the power of arrest. It's also important to put together the draft order. Uh So whether you're drafting the order, whether you're drafting the undertaking very, very important. And to set out uh the position with the terms of the order. So this is where some years ago Mr. Justice must in sitting in the High Court had released the omnibus version of the non molestation, occupation orders. A number of draft orders which were put together put together by the Family orders project team. And since then the then President Family division, Sir James Mumbi pulled together through the various uh committees. The practice guidance standard Children and other orders. So these were standardized orders and not just Children, but other orders such as personal protection orders. And there's a separate section which relates to finances. These were not Issued about three years ago. I'll put the link their free. And these provide some very useful um waters which are pre populated, which give you a lot of information which you can then use to save you and to start drafting an order from scratch. Now when you are drafting the orders very, very important to make sure that you set out the terms of the order that you're seeking. So again, the standard orders will give you a lot of this information. So for example, set out from and after the time that the response is made aware of the terms of the order. So you probably want to in order that once they are served with the order, once they're given notice, then the following shall apply. So for example, the respondent shall be forbidden whether by itself or instructing encouraging any other person to for example, users for and violence towards the applicant and a relevant child to not harass them not to pester them not to intimidate not to communicate. Would the applicant? Development Children. Uh, but then it's important to, I would suggest sometimes actually specify what what type of things you're thinking of in terms of not harassing and pestering and intimidating. So that's why it's helpful. I would suggest to also specify sometimes the type of conduct. So for example there not to swear not to shout at the absolute control of relevant child. And not to communicate with them through telephone, including voicemail and text messages or through email or any other social networking site. Do facebook twitter for example, not to belittle them or not to have communication with them except through solicitors or for the purposes of maybe setting up contacts or the only way they can communicate with the person is simply for the purposes of setting up contact between uh the idea of the party and the Children for example. And if you do wish to apply for an occupation order, I would suggest that it's very important. And for you to set out again the draft order sort of terms vary and again you got the standard orders which which do provide for this. So it could be something along the lines of the respondent is then required to vacate the former family home, for example. So you put the address in, you define that and then you specify, it's like saying you have to re type it every time in the order. Do You want them to vacate the property forth with as soon as a survey of the order, do you want to give them say 48 days of 40, hours to give them chance than to collect their personal Belurings. Do you want to give them a bit longer maybe 48 hours. So those are some of the discussions you need to be having uh with your client and it wants to respondent has vacated the property. Then the next issue is what's to happen And do you want it and forbid them whether by themselves or by instructing or encouraging any other person to enter or attempt to enter the property not to come within say 50 m of the property, for example, other than for the purposes of of aging, contact or seeing the Children in those circumstances. So it could be, it could be that what some judges will do is they will also particularly specified that the applicant and a charge shall be entitled to continue to remain the property. So that makes it very clear. And as I said earlier, this is where if you are seeking the power of arrest, it's important to specify that as well and to specify which parts of the order the power of arrest is actually attached to. Now, some judges rather than putting a provision Which says that the person is not to come within say 100 m or 50 m of solve the property, they will actually wish you specify the actual roads or the streets that they can't come within marked on a map. So you may even have a copy of a map which map which is then appended to the uh the actual order and then it's actually marked in terms of which streets or maps they cannot or can come on sort speak. So it's just easier and sometimes better to be able to do that and it's more clear for all parties than concerned. Okay. Now let's say you have lodged a without notice application for non mall or a non molestation orders. Let's say the order is obtained but then it's also and then uh listed for return data then you need to think about what happens leading up to that return date. So do you need orders for example, for continuation of the order of the undertaking? What about corroborative evidence? Would would your client which too far corroborative evidence from the GP school police, local authority for example, what about witnesses if the matter is listed for a contested hearing? And again, bear in mind the need for participation directions as I mentioned. So very, very important to ensure that that provision is made provision for with India within the order itself. Okay, and when you are preparing for these hearings, whether it's a initial hearing which may be without notice or indeed returned eight hearings and even contested hearings thereafter. Bear in mind the plenary documents which you need to be preparing for the purpose of the bundle was a bundle is being prepared and filed electronically or paper version? The pillory documents need to be within the bundle. So first and foremost the case somewhere which summarizes than what the case about and shouldn't be more than a few pages normally position statement for each other parties setting out their case as to what their position is for like hearing station arguments, if there's going to be a legal argument over any matters and helpful to put Scottish and arguments in which a cross referencing into the law and in a separate composite bundle which actually sets out the complete set of authorities that you're relying upon and ideally agreed between the avid advocacy possible. You should also be filing a list of essential reading for that hearing by the judge and then the time estimate case are very important to get all of that together for the purposes of Deer the hearing itself. Mhm. So this is where let's say you do go to that without notice hearing and say you are able to secure anomalous station order made without notice on behalf of your client. There were returned eight and that we return date normally and knowledge than 14 days later. And this is what is very important for you to ensure that the paperwork is then served upon the respondent so that he or she is aware of what orders if any were made. And also to ensure that they are aware of the return date so they can take advice and be represented for that. So this is where the application of for myself for the one in the statement that you've done plus notice of proceedings uh would need to then be served upon the respondent if it's a return data. Indeed, if you're applying for non notice here and you are especially give to clear days notice unless the court bridges time for service. So it is possible to bridge time for service if needs be. And very important I would suggest if your inquiry agent is going to be serving personally to ensure them that they are aware of the fact that the order was made and therefore he requires servicing a serving and make sure your client is safe and able to attend court on the return date. Now this then brings me onto the position With service specifically and this is where we've got practice direction 36 you uh and this was brought in largely because of the covid pandemic so early 2020 and it therefore brought in a temporary modification department of the family procedures were generally speaking when it comes to these personal protection order's those a requirement to ensure that these are served personally. But of course because of covid and because of their lockdowns, it was felt that personal service would therefore compromise and prejudice and put at risk not only the process server, but indeed the parties they are looking to serve because obviously the risk of contamination with uh paperwork and also go into people's homes and elsewhere. So because of that there was this amendment that came In practice direction 36 you which basically looked at the impact of coronavirus and limiting the availability of core values for example to affect personal service. So that rule 10.10 uh was amended then to enable a court to Use and utilize of the massive service if needs be. And also real 10.10 was amended so that the police should be notified of any order once responded has been informed of its terms now disorders black construction amendment has been in place now for over a year. It is down to due to end at the end of september 30th September 2021 and depending really on where we are uh with the position with uh the continuing easing of the restrictions then it may be that this practice traction then comes to an end or it may be extended for a further period thereafter. So I think a lot depends on really how well the vaccine rollout continues to be utilized going forward. Also there's the position surrounding announcements in open court. So we had this provision which came in some years ago which said that uh certain orders for example without notice order that was made or a an occupation order with the power of arrest had to be announced in open court or in public. But obviously because of the coronavirus and the fact that there were a lot less in person hearings taking place. This pilot practice Direction Practice Direction 36 6 came in so that there was a suspension of the need to do that in these circumstances. This practice Direction did in fact Expires on 31 March of 20 21. But it's now been replaced by the permanent amendment to this provision, the Family law tax or that this requirement now to announce these orders that are being made without notice at the first available open court setting has actually been now removed and it's not just in relation to Family law act orders, it's also uh orders that are made uh in so far as Children act orders for exclusion requirements when there's a medicine protection order or an interim care order. So it applies there as well. Now when you do go to his hearings. Very important, I would suggest whether you're going to do now without notice hearing go returned eight linked the facts to the law to indicate why the audience appropriate. And be realistic. So for example, without notice, occupation orders where the opponent is in the house, they're not made very often because of course the judge will be very reluctant to compel to respond to move out of the house where the only at that stage taking your client's side of the story into account because it's without notice. I'll be realistic, is it possible for your client to live elsewhere for a while for a while until dramatic could be heard on a return date in those circumstances. And very important to indicate what further directions may be needed, particularly if there's going to be further witnesses and witness statements that may be needed, like say in terms of the return date, if there wasn't any with that notice order made, say that was not made or adjourned, then this will be effectively the first hearing and unnoticed applications must be served in no less than two days before the hearing. So service may result in a german if requested to enable the respondent to get legal advice. So bear in mind that if you are applying as the applicant to a bridge time for service then has that given the respondent sufficient time to go and consult lawyers and to be represented for the hearings are bear that in mind. Also when you are dealing with these applications noticed for the occupation order must also be served on a landlord or mortgages as well. So bear in mind you've got to give them notice as well because obviously they've got a right to know what's happening to the property that they've got a security on in that regard. So once the respondent has been served then whatever method is used fire the sworn or science. Dept of service fl 415 to confirm to the court what method was used to serve them in those circumstances and when you do come to the return date a lot will depend on really whether the respondent has turned up on that. So if there's no attendance body on the side, what do you do? And that's where the order may have already been made for a longer period of time, in which case you will continue. And if the order was made only for a short period of time, this is where if you can confirm that the respondent has been served and your father knots of service the fr 415 the judge if satisfied that the order is necessary to be extended will probably extend the order for your client. It respondent does attend. Will you ever contested here? And? Well, it depends if the courts got availability, they may hear you. Is there a compromise? This is where the use of undertakings as they or maybe tied to injunctions? And this is why it's important to be advised your client about what an undertaking is and how that works in the circumstances. And again, it's very, very important. I would suggest that you need to bear in mind your client's safety and well being and you need to repeat these steps for service of the order and the filing of the power of arrest and hold a client had used the order and what can happen. And the fact that mainly to call the police, if there was an alleged breach of the order that then brings me on for the last part of today to talk to you about the duration of non molestation orders, an occupation orders and also the position with return dates in particular have been talking about. So there was this case of JM & Cesid in 2014, a High court decision by Mr. Justice Mostyn. And at that time, what was happening in many course of crossing the whales is that when courts were making without notice orders, they were finding that if they did list a matter for returned eight more times and not the respondents were not turning up and therefore he was and he was felt it was inappropriate use of limited court time where matter has been listed, but it wasn't going ahead because respondents were not turning up. So instead, what many courts began to do is to put in the order when they made an order without notice that the respondent would have limited to apply for a hearing. So rather than listing it for a return date, the onus was put on the respondent to then contact accord. And if they wish to contest or have a hearing that it would be listed at the earliest availability. And uh the his lordship did say that the grant Into respondent of a Liberator applied simply does not satisfy the provision uh into so far as without no disorders. Under section 45. Subsection three is concerned. There has to be a return date and this was them also confirmed later by the president of the family division. Sir James Mumbi at the time, there was issues, there was a practice Gunness issued on 13th october 20 14 which provided for that and then subsequently some three years later there was an updating set of guidance provided by the President of Family Division. Which is the current provisions which we've got. Which to practice guidance. Family court, duration of ex party Or without notice orders of 18th of January 2017. So that's the current provisions that we've got at the moment and going through some of this and some of the key elements of this is his lordship did say that when the next party or without notice injunction is made it must never be made without limit of time. It has to be a fixed end date, it's not enough to simply specify return date. So you've got to set out specifically on the face of the order precisely when it expires about what time does it expire and on what date? Secondly it says that the cord must specify a return date. So very very important you can't put in their liberty to apply. So the court must specify return day and it must specify the date, time and place of the hearing on the return date It should also be normally no more than 14 days after the order was made. Okay so very very important and if as I mentioned earlier if the court is unable to accommodate you for that and it is something that you do need to be able to bring to their attention bearing in mind his practice note how long the hearing on the return date is listed for the matter of discretion. Okay? So sometimes you may find it's literally listed for five 10 15 minutes. It may not be very long just to give the response the opportunity to turn up and if they do wish to contest and of course the court they need to consider how to do that or otherwise a lot of magic to proceed in the absence of the respondent. Mhm. And also in terms of the duration of any orders Are made without notice. Typically his lordship said that many orders will be a short duration, maybe 14 days. But sometimes in some cases, particularly if there's been longer term of abuse of a longer period of time, then it may be that a longer term order is Made possibly six months if not longer. So this Is under this is actually the without notice or you can get a six month or 12 month order if necessary, but you must still have a return date. So that's the important thing. So that there is a return date No more than 14 days and therefore what will happen is on that return date. If the respondent does turn up the court and then give regard to whether the order that was made at that we don't notice should continue and he saw whether the duration that was it was made for should continue in those circumstances. Okay, So that's where that provision comes in the order must also make it clear that it was made in the absence of a respondent. And the court only consider the evidence of the applicant. So it's got to specify that. And also the court has made no findings of factors, so it's got to provide for that and where the evidence is written, it must be identified in the order. Plus the other key provisions that set out in this practice not. Is this where exceptionally the court has received all the other evidence, for example, photographic evidence that should be called on the face of the organ reduced to add insult. So this is very important. So if you're therefore court, let's say, and you're acting for sale to the wife where she is seeking a normal station order against her husband and say, you adduce that to hearing a text message that she has received or other evidence, say, photographic evidence. Uh you hadn't put in a statement, then if exceptionally, the court allows you to bring that in, then the face of the order. Uh The terms of the order needs to make that clear. So at least the respondent knows that that was additional evidence that was referred to, so that they can then look to challenge that if necessary at any return date. Okay? And the order has to also recite The fact that court has had regard to sections 45 1 and two of the act, which relates to without notice orders. The order must also contain a statement of the applicant the respondent, and to be able to apply to the court to satisfy the very the order. Liberty to apply simply won't be enough for that. It's got to spell out that responses are titled without waiting for the return date to apply to set aside or vary the order. And if they do, if they do contact the court and do wish to do so, then the court must list it as a matter of urgency within a matter of days at most. So you can see that's the other key thing that this practice guidance emphasizes. So it's got to be within a matter of days as opposed to anything longer than that. And this is where his lordship did say that experience does suggest that sometimes normal station orders or others are made. And the respondent frequently neither applies to set aside or vary the order or they do not attend. And if that's the case where in such cases there is no attendance by the respondent. And the order having had been served doesn't require amendment, then there's no need to reserve. So that would be particularly helpful. Were safe. I was forced to wife and example, I've been using we went to court without notice hearing. We've got a number the station orders for say six months. We obviously got there with the returned 1814 days we were able to satisfy the court that the respondent was personally served. He fell to turn up. And that's where, because we don't need any change to the order that was made. It just continues I either the rest of the six months so the five months and two weeks that's left of it, that will continue and because it doesn't require amendment, no need to reserve in those circumstances. But it's important to make sure that that's recorded uh in that regard. So that's where that comes in. Now there was then another case re w 2016. This was before the january 2017 guidance where once again we see Justice Mostyn was very concerned that in the case here, the uh without notice normally station order uh which was made. Again, it was made, but where the President's guidance had not been followed. Okay, so the order is made for a year and uh the return date had not been provided for. So again, you consider the concern that's raised here and also his lordship did say that they would not without notice orders are to be seen as more the exception and not the rule in these circumstances. So very important also bear that in mind as well in terms of length of normal station and occupational Is there was a relatively recent case at a case of Mandara and shake last year 2020 by Mr. Justice carbon. One of the things that this high court decision provides that if, as in this case, there had been anomaly station order made indefinitely. Which is the case here, then if some three years later, which is when the the man in this case applied to set aside the order. Um where where do you stand with that? So her husband applied to set aside a normal station order some three years later. And is it possible any longer to make indefinite normal station orders? While the court did say that uh section 42 seven doesn't require a finite order to be made. And somebody old case law such As Re B. J. This case in the year 2000 does say that indefinite orders or orders without a end time can be made. However, there is the President's Guidance that I just mentioned one of 2017 where the President did say that there should be an end time. There should be a period put in there as to when the order lapses. And therefore with that in mind the good practice, his lordship said it is contrary to good common practice of the family court. And unusual for normal station or to be made without limit of time and therefore it's going to be rare for an application discharged to be should many years after the date. So you can see there should ideally be an end time here and it would be more quite rare to not have an end time in these situations. Okay, so that brings us to the end of this session. So thank you very much for listening. And you can see you've covered a number of elements today about not just a process of seeking uh these numbers station occupation orders, but all sort of position with the practice guidance, particularly the President's guidance on a normal station orders and occupation orders, and also without notice orders. What I'm going to be doing that in the next session is will be spending some time looking at the next key thing, which is enforcement of these orders, and then that will then bring us on to uh the position with the use of other uh forms of personal protection release, such as the Protection from harassment act. Thank you very much indeed for listening. And I speak to you next time. Thank you very much. Bye for now.
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